Governor Announces New Stay at Home Order Based on Hospitalizations

I expect that it's not outdoor dining that's the issue, it's the gathering that it encourages. If people would be smart...but they aren't being smart.

Zero, if outdoor dining was a covid vector that would be one thing, but it isn't. They have the data to support this. At this point in the pandemic we have the information to combat the virus strategically, and any measures that will prevent so many people from receiving a paycheck, people who are already living paycheck to paycheck, need to be well founded. This isn't. It isn't following the science, but that doesn't matter to Newsom either; "science" has said emphatically that schools are the safest place kids can be. But our schools remain closed, so that is a good indicator how important "science" is to our governor.

Sorry.
i plagiarized that from some time ago.Seems apropos.

Dude it is called hypocrisy.
Many here fit that category.
You have to move away from anything SANTA BARBARA
It has been an amazing adventure, living in California. Forty-five years as a high school administrator, therapist, teacher, friend, neighbor. Now retired and blaming California for the hands around my throat, for the loss of hope, the destruction of human rights.

There is no place like Santa Barbara, its beauty beyond belief. If you can live on Channel Drive, eat at Lucky’s, ignore the homeless on State Street, this is your paradise. There is no place for dissent. Toe the liberal agenda, pretend your outrageous riches are due to hard work while average people clean your toilets. The liberal hypocrisy is glaring, startling, disgusting, shameful, endemic.

The state is bankrupt. The liberal democrats have destroyed this paradise. Taxes are blindly outrageous, the slums of L.A. and S.F. are on par with Mumbai, political leaders live in gated, guarded luxury while demanding increased taxes to provide illegal persons more rights, more comfort than citizens. There is no avenue for dissent from the liberal destruction. My opinion is guarded by liberals except if different from the party line. Of course, as you read this you hate me. That is what liberals do. Claim to be inclusive, progressive, tolerant — unless you disagree. The thinking that was birthed by Hitlerain zealots in the 1930s. That is Socialist ignorance and the future of this state under Newsom, who will make Brown seem like Dick Cheney before he is done. Yet, you pay and pay, worship the agenda, hate conservatives, and continue to drink the Kool-Aid. Quality of life has been destroyed for the people due to the polices that ruined Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, Atlanta — every democrat liberal-led disaster.

Not that anyone cares, but I exit the land I loved. As hundreds of thousands of clear-thinking people are doing. To another place where there is tolerance, respect for free speech, values that built this country. I cry for you California. There is no hope.

No Andrea, forcing the entire state to lock down, people losing jobs, businesses, going homeless, and causing suicide rates to skyrocket for your 80 year old parents that are retired and can STAY HOME home until this is over is selfish and disgusting!

Speaking on behalf of my parents who are in their 80s and doing what they can to stay home aside from essential grocery shopping thus possibly exposing themselves when others aren't taking precautions, I say it's your attitude that is selfish.

Here here. I was just told I will be losing my job (again) as soon as Monday, which had already gone from full-time to very part-time. What little unemployment benefits remained, ran out three weeks ago and the system has still not updated the extension. $40 in my wallet and -$500 in the bank account to keep the utilities on and food on the table for my child and myself. Merry Christmas, Governor.

Yes Chip, of course I was speaking literally and not figuratively...

Other countries are already doing what you are advocating for. In China for example, they do exactly what you say. Anyone who does not conform over there ends up in a prison camp. If we repealed the bill of rights, we could do the same here. There is one big problem though. How do you make sure you get to force everyone to do what you want? What if that power were turned against you and other people forced you to conform to their ideology? I feel like it might be safer to retain some degree of individual liberty.

GeneralTree 100% agree.

Agreed, Trump has broken so many laws while in office.

I don't know who thumbed you down Chip but 9 months in that is completely reasonable expectation.

I think it might even be appropriate to prove that particular types of businesses are responsible for transmission of the virus before shutting them down.

Good question. It would be nice to know where these people are getting it. Particularly if it involves businesses that the public frequent.

1. You actually can get a sense of how many lives are saved. California has a high death toll and infection rate, but our per capita death rate is significantly lower than many other states. Largely, because up until this point we have managed not to overwhelm our hospitals. So yes, you can actually measure the fact that restrictions designed to keep our hospitals from overflowing have and do save many lives.
2. Also there is an end in sight. We are extremely close to a vaccine and yes, you will need to wear a mask and distance even after the vaccine, and yes it will be a many months before you get that vaccine. But that vaccine will VERY soon be protecting health care workers which will in turn allow our hospitals to function, which will AGAIN save countless lives. And yes, you will have to wear a mask but life will get significantly less risky and we will get closer to returning to "normal." But we need to make it through the next few months, until we live in that reality.
Additionally, you might keep in mind that because probably you and the vast majority of people will survive Covid, the questions you propose really sound like “I’ll take the risk of maybe (but probably not) dying from covid to avoid an economically stressful and socially damaging lockdown” — which is really saying “I am willing to entertain the notion of other people (probably people I don’t know personally) dying of covid so that me and the rest of the majority don’t have to struggle through a lockdown.” Every time I read comments like yours I wonder, are you personally one of these people you speak of who would rather die than lose their business and livelihood? Or are you just someone who would be okay with watching other people die if it meant not losing your business or your livelihood (because that's honestly really what it comes down to and what it sounds like). As one those young people whose economic opportunities and future is being “sacrificed” for the old, I’ll personally say, that while this pandemic has derailed my life in a lot of ways. I still rather suffer the consequences of a lockdown than deal with the trauma of watching my older relatives die alone in the ICU. I do agree with you that these lockdowns have tremendously negative effects - I don't mean to belittle that - but as you sympathetically imagine those business owners and children dropping out of schools and as you question whether these restrictions--which we can verify save lives-- are worth the sacrifice, ask yourself if you'd be playing over the same thought experiment if you'd already lost family members to this virus.

"When is it ever okay to sacrifice the young to save the old? " Wow, you are really a lost cause.

Amen!

I would like to add SBISOK, that poverty, job loss, less/poor education, stress, etc. all have real measurable impacts to peoples health and are all contributing factors to shorter life expectancy. While we maybe saving some lives with our response, we are also costing other people their lives with our response. How many years of life are we taking from our population with the restrictions and how many are we saving? What is abhorrible to me, and the driver of most of my heated replies here, is that with CA's response, we are taking years of life from the youngest in our community, to give to the oldest. When is it ever okay to sacrifice the young to save the old? If you're older or at risk, STAY HOME, STAY SAFE.

SBISOK, so so true what you say, it's what I've been saying too. Ideally no one dies. But losing your entire livelihood - your home, etc. - is like death too in many ways. I know of families where the parents lost their jobs, are sleeping on friend's couches [separately] while their kids sleep on other friend's couches. it's really terrible. Which is why I truly hope the 'numbers' are accurate b/c government is using them to justify many things that also hurt people - government has a lot of power including the power to legally put you to death [literally and figuratively]. It's a hard line to walk and I sure hope it's based on sound data, etc.

For some reason these subjects are verboten. Thank you for mentioning.

Bosco: First, the Mercy has 80 ICU beds. Second, it's staffed with over 1,000 medically trained personnel, many of which are probably skilled enough to staff ICUs, as ships such as this are designed for assistance in combat and natural disasters. Here are her specs:

USNS Mercy (T-AH-19)
Patient capacity:
Intensive care wards: 80 beds
Recovery wards: 20 beds
Intermediate care wards: 280 beds
Light care wards: 120 beds
Limited care wards: 500 beds
Total patient capacity: 1000 beds
Operating rooms: 12

Personnel:
Merchant Marine: 16 ROS; 61 active
Navy communications & support: 58 (6 officers, 52 enlisted)
Medical and dental (active only): 1,156

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Mercy_(T-AH-19)

I can't exactly speak for how ICU beds are added. But I don't believe any of overflow you speak of (Sears, Navy Ship, etc.) would be for ICU. Rather these are to be used for low risk patients. Ultimately, staffing is a bigger issue than ICU beds. Not all Nurses and doctors are skilled enough to take care of ICU patients and Nurse/Patient rations are reduced in ICU units. ICU staff becomes a much more limiting factor. Back in July when the County hospital system had 3 times the number of COVID patients, bed capacity was not an issue butthe ICU staff was severely overstressed. They did a great job and managed it, but it was stressful.

"ships that went unused. Solutions were provided but not utilized." .... because the lockdowns worked.

I have been thinking of that Sears deal ($$$$$). Thanks for reminding everyone. And also the ships that went unused. Solutions were provided but not utilized.

They are trying to convince retired Dr.s and nurses to return to work. That is going to be a hard sell for those people in the high risk groups unless they are willing to guinea pig the vaccines.

Alright... I Can see the point for someone using it. It’s not my jam... but to each his own. Though I am convinced I’ve had some debates on here with people who were using the anonymous feature just to add a voice (or 3!!!) agreeing with their own post!

One reason for anonymity is to attempt to avoid being pre-judged. I may want my comment to be assessed on its own merits, not a reader’s feelings about me based on my previous Edhat comments. “Oh, here’s another comment from that guy who wrote idiotic things about X.” Maybe I was an idiot about X, but not about Y.

About going anonymous or about your original comment of : “Anyone who thinks that masks aren't the most helpful measure against the pandemic at this point is not in contact with reality.”?

Because no... I don’t get why there is an anonymous button on an anonymous website and obviously masks aren’t the most helpful measure against the pandemic. They are helpful. They obviously are helpful. But your assertion that they are the most helpful was wrong... and your subsequent posts made me question your current grasp of reality as you don’t seem to grasp that not being around people...is safer than being in a mask around people.

So, your point is?