Edhat Staff
Hundreds of UC Santa Barbara students have created a peaceful encampment on campus to show their support for Palestinians affected by the war in Gaza and vows to stay until the university meets their demands.
As part of a series of protests across UC campuses and organized by the “UCSB Liberated Zone,” a campus group supporting Palestinians, about 200 people have pitched tents between North Hall and the Davidson Library.
The camp began on May 1st and like many student groups throughout the United States, they’re asking the university to divest funds related to the ongoing war.
On May 3, the group posted their demands online that include disclosing investments and Department of Defense-related contracts; divesting from weapons manufacturers, “unethical materials,” and “colonial infrastructure;” demilitarize research, abolish the UC Police Department, academic boycott of Israel, and protect free speech and academic freedom.
One day earlier, UCSB Chancellor Henry Yang’s office released a statement on the encampment supporting the school’s tradition of student activism, although noted the unsanctioned nature of the encampment has drawn attention, prompting him to remind students about adhering to laws and codes of conduct on campus. This call to action stems from recent instances of disruptive activities and an ongoing Federal Discrimination Probe following an incident targeting the Jewish president of Associated Students.
“We must ensure campus safety, and respect the right of everyone on campus to feel safe. Those violating laws and codes of conduct in unsanctioned, illegal, and disruptive activities, whether non-affiliates or members of our campus community, are subject to legal and disciplinary action,” wrote Yang.
“We recognize that the violence and suffering in the Middle East have caused great distress in our campus community and we urgently hope that a peaceful resolution will be found. We remain committed to dialogue and education, especially where there are strongly held and differing views. As a public university, the University of California welcomes regular reviews of its policies and practices; there is much that can be debated with analytic rigor.”
Yang went on to state that many students are looking forward to commencement ceremonies next month, a nod to recent graduation ceremony cancellations at other universities due to protests.
“To report antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Arab, anti-Black, or other forms of discrimination, follow this link: https://uctitleix.i-sight.com/portal. Reports will be reviewed and investigated, consistent with campus and UC policies, and federal law, and appropriate action will be taken through our established conduct codes and policies to hold responsible individuals accountable,” Yang wrote.
Hamas started the whole conflict with the slaughtering ( cold blooded murdering) of tons of innocent people , should we forgive and forget?
The students aren’t calling for forgiving and forgetting the 10/7 attack. Your comment and the upvotes are patently dishonest.
if they’re not calling for forgiving and forgetting what do you call it?
Is that a turnip asking that question? I can’t imagine anyone smarter than one asking it. They’re calling for the end of the slaughter of Palestinians, including thousands upon thousands of dead and maimed children.
I’m not sure about UCSB but most of the protestors at the campuses aren’t students, need to open your eyes or take your binders off or maybe you’ve got a blind stick .Calling me a liar, everybody’s entitled to their opinion. Your the biggest liar/ problem with this country what’s wrong with the world its because of people like you in it
ANON – “most of the protestors at the campuses arenāt students,” – Can you provide a source for that untrue claim?
can you provide a source that they are students? don’t you watch the media and look at the people they’re just a bunch of violent vagrants( some illegeally here) are hopping from City to City. Supply Tents that offer Supplies for Portland San Francisco Venice beach resurrection. look carefully at the pictures and it’s the same partial group from UCLA that got booted out or arrested
ANON – if you’re going to make a wild claim like that, it’s up to you to back it up. I understand that you have no source, but just come out and say that instead.
And yeah, I DO watch and read the articles about this, including the interviews with student protesters and I see the videos of them peacefully protesting. I also see NO evidence of these protesters doing anything you could really consider as antisemitic, despite them being attacked as such.
I also DO see the video and reports of outside, “professional” agitators saying awful, antisemitic things and threatening Jewish students and I think that is terrible. There is no place for hate here. I (and most good people) want what these students want: An end to war that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people.
Now, go find your “news” source showing “most” of these protesters aren’t students.
You’re the one making this absurd claim, so you’re the one who should prove it (which you can’t, as it is patently false).
Why is it that there’s not one other country in the world that will except the Palestinians into their arms?
ANON – why does it matter? Also, did you forget about the part where Israel won’t let them leave unless they hold foreign visas or passports?
Sac, are you aware that Gazans have always been able to come and go across the Egyptian border? They have not been “trapped” there. If that were the case how could there have been hundreds of Palestinian-American citizens in Gaza visiting their families on vacation when the war started?
Of course they have to pay bribes to Hamas that put traveling outside of Gaza beyond the economic means of many Gazans.
Again: https://www.npr.org/2024/03/02/1234439113/palestinians-leave-gaza-egypt-hala#:~:text=But%20Gaza's%20only%20open%20border,pathway%20out%20is%20to%20pay.
They’ve never had the ability to move freely without restriction by the Israeli government or payment to Hamas/Egypt.
So no, they can’t just waltz into another country to avoid the bombs. That’s my point.
ALEX – it’s not that simple. Most Gazans don’t have the $$ to cross into Egypt.
“Leaving Gaza was already a complicated matter before the start of the war due to the blockade imposed by both Israel and Egypt since 2007” https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazans-reportedly-charged-exorbitant-sums-by-egyptian-company-to-leave-strip/
So no, it’s not as free, open and willy nilly as you seem to suggest.
I get that Israel “allowed” crossing into Egypt, but to suggest Gaza has some free and open border is just factually not true.
I literally said:
“Of course they have to pay bribes to Hamas that put traveling outside of Gaza beyond the economic means of many Gazans.”
Did you not see that?
I never said it was “free and open” or that it was “willy nilly”.
You said that they are “trapped”. I said no, they are not “trapped”.
There is a middle ground between “trapped” and “free and open” and that is the reality of how it has been. Again, how else could there have been hundreds of Palestinian-Americans vacationing and visiting their families at the time of October 7th and the ensuing invasion?
In fact, even now, if you have money and connections to Hamas you can get out of Gaza through Egypt.
ALEX – I read it and I noted the context and tone. Yes, if you have $$$ (like up to 10 grand each). then goody, you can get into Egypt. Have you seen the people of Gaza? Do they look like they have that kind of money? Why are there still millions of people there if it’s so easy to leave as you insist?
“Again, how else could there have been hundreds of Palestinian-Americans vacationing and visiting their families at the time of October 7th and the ensuing invasion?” – Again, because they have PASSPORTS.
We’ve beat this horse to death now. Fact remains, the people of Gaza are for the most part, stuck in Gaza. Is that better? You ok with that wording? Jeezus dude.
Yet again, you are claiming I have said things that I have not said.
When did I say it was “easy”?
Never. Again I will repeat what I said–that the cost of bribing Hamas officials puts exiting the country behind the economic means of most Gazans.
And also, having a PASSPORT does not guarantee passage in or out of Gaza. You still need to pay bribes to Hamas.
we need to send Biden over there so that they can have an open border policy that would be way better
We need to provide you with a brain transplant into the currently unoccupied space.
This clash did not begin with Hamas’s attack in October
you’re one of those people that didn’t take the holocaust happened l?
*I know relatives*
Oh, there’s that turnip again.
I for one am Jewish. The Holocaust (which is always capitalized; not doing so is disrespectful) happened and I relatives of survivors. And the clash between Israel and Palestinians began long before 10/7.
Bro you being the relative of survivors doesn’t mean shit. Trotting that out to try and create some sort of moral high ground is noxious. I’m the direct descendent of survivors, so what. Argue your case based on the merits not on trying to weaponize the holocaust.
“weaponize”? You sound like a Trumpkin and when it comes to Israel you’re exactly like one–a very bad, deeply immoral person. I didn’t do any of what you accused me of, including claiming that I’m a relative of survivors. My comment was about Anonymous (who like you is utterly dishonest on this issue) equating saying that the clash didn’t begin on 10/7 to denying the Holocaust.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/6/where_olive_trees_weep
Two wrongs will never make a right.
ANON – No, and we shouldn’t be ok with the killing and maiming of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians either.
innocent yeah right
ANON – please educate yourself. These comments are ridiculous and Islamophobic. Hate usually stems from ignorance. Help yourself be better.
Are you at all capable of making an intelligent, decent, mature, non-genocidal comment? We’re talking about millions of Palestinians, half of whom are children. Many of the dead and maimed are infants.
Is this right? During ww2 we slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent Germans, while we should have been restricted to Nazis?
Most were all complicit with butchering the Israelis. Tell me they didn’t know their brothers / cousins / neighbors and fathers were in on this, doesn’t justify that some innocent Palestinians were killed but who started the murdering of innocent people
“Most were all complicit with butchering the Israelis.”
This is simply a lie, and a ratiionalization of genocide.
It’s baffling to me how many here (and online) are just fine with the deaths of TENS OF THOUSANDS of innocent children. Don’t kid yourselves. You are.
I really hope UCSB allows this peaceful protest to continue to spread awareness of the atrocities occurring in Gaza. Peaceful demonstrations, especially relating to the Israel-Hamas war, must be allowed to proceed without falling to outside pressure. Good work, students! Keep it peaceful and open!
Peaceful protest is fine.
Sadly, however, many demonstrators (perhaps even all) do not understand the definition of genocide, that word appearing so prominently in their protestations.
This, from the Oxford dictionary: “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
Thus, the difference between Hamas and the Israelis is illustrated by this recent quote:
“Hamas WOULD commit genocide of the Jews if it could; Israel COULD commit genocide of the Palestinians, but it won’t.”
Very telling. Hamas IS intent on destroying the nation of Israel and Jews as a group, while Israel is NOT intent on destroying the Palestinians as a group.
Yeah, but the perceived “genocide,” isn’t the only reason they’re protesting. No matter what you call it, what Israel is doing to tens of thousands of innocent children is horrendous. People are protesting the relentless support of Netanyahu and his chilling policies, not just related to Gaza. These aren’t “anti-Jewish” protesters, they’re pro-Palestinian rights protesters.
Further, please stop equating Hamas with all Palestinians. Despite an election 20 years ago (and none since), doesn’t mean the people of Gaza, the majority of whom weren’t even alive then), support Hamas and what they stand for.
As for Israel not being “intent on destroying the Palestinians as a group,” same thing. Some members of the Israeli government have indicated that very feeling, while most Israelis do not.
“Israel COULD commit genocide of the Palestinians, but it wonāt.”
I doubt that’s a recent quote because it is way out of step with the facts today. The head of Israel was parading a map of the Middle East with Palestine erased just a few years ago. Now, today, Israel has killed about 35,000 Palestinians since October 2023, and counting–primarily innocent non combatants. If Israel had stopped at the Hamas number, about 1,200, or even double that, people probably would have been OK with that…. But they’re at about 30 times that now, and they want to keep killing.
GALADY – Great point! I keep seeing this “argument” against genocide as if there’s only one way to eliminate a group of people.
Sure, Israel could have killed the entire population of Gaza and the West Bank within days of Oct 7, but so what? Just because they didn’t kill them all right away doesn’t mean there’s factions of the Israeli government who want to (and maybe even are) carry out plans that would have the end result of an even more oppressed and decimated indigenous Palestinian population? That’s absurd. Israel knows they wouldn’t have gotten away with a mass killing and occupation. Carrying out policies with the same result can still be “genocide.”
Not saying that’s the official Israeli policy here, but you’re kidding yourself if you think no one in that government would do it if they thought they could get away with it. Let’s stop praising Israel for their “constraint” as if their current actions are some venerable or philanthropic endeavor.
It’s not a quote at all. If you google it., the only reference is Curmudgeon saying it above. It’s simply his assertion, and putting it in quotes as if that somehow made it true is dishonest.
To say that Israel could commit genoicide of the people in Gaza is a fact.
To say that they aren’t currently endeavoring to do so is also a fact.
If they were currently attempting to murder every person in Gaza the casualties would already be in the hundreds of thousands. That is a fact.
To state that there are senior leaders in the Israeli of the Israeli government who advocate for ethic cleansing and the implicit mass murder which that would require is also a fact.
To state that radical right wing religious settlers are advocating for ethnic cleansing and mass murder is also a fact.
Holding a map of “Israel and Judea” in front of a camera is not ethnic cleansing or genocide. It is clearly aspirational towards one or both of those goals but it is not tantamount to the goals themselves. And, by the way, I think the vast majority of even the radical right are not so much interested in genocide, i.e., the murder of all Palestinians, as they are interested in ethnic cleansing and the forcible transfer of the entire non-Jewish population from what they consider to be historic Israel.
All of that is evil and bad.
Let’s stick to the facts.
So many lies from a fundamentally immoral person when it comes to this issue.
“If they were currently attempting to murder every person in Gaza”
That’s not how genocide is defined.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/6/where_olive_trees_weep
Yeah, that’s what genocide means. Literally. “Murder of a people”.
Why do you post a link that has nothing to do with the definition of genocide to support your claim? Pretty lame.
Now show me the Hamas Ministry of Health casualty reports (I mean they are an entirely trustworthy source in you book, I know, so let’s use their numbers) that demonstrate the million dead. Or the two million dead. You know–the number of dead you would see in a genocide.
Virtually every expert on genocide, including Israeli experts, say that what is happening in Gaza is genocide.
Yang put out a detailed statement to UCSB staff when this went down. He seems content to let this go unless things get out of hand including any potential to jeopardize graduation ceremonies. All of it made sense to me. These students deserve a graduation after the COVID fiasco the government put them through. I doubt the students here will get out of control like others elsewhere have.
Camping on campus is not allowed at UCSB and not a protected free speech right. UCSB needs to take down the camping gear and let them protest via their first amendment rights.
Fernald – obviously, it’s being allowed. If you have a problem with it, write to Yang.
Protesting war has been happening on college campuses for decades. And every time students do this, it’s the older generation that tells them to be quiet and stop. It makes me wonder how many commenters here were protesting Vietnam or the invasion of Iraq
These kids are so lost, itās sad. They have no idea theyāre pandering to millennia old hatred towards Jews. Any other country gets its people slaughtered, raped and kidnapped in a totally unprovoked attack and is allowed to retaliate unless itās Israel right? Sacjon is out of his mind to keep propagating this genocide lie. Want a real genocide? Try the Holocaust where nearly 50% of all Jews were tortured to death! Whatās happening in Gaza is what happens when the international community allows a globally recognized terrorist organization to terrorize its neighbor for 20 years and the neighbor has finally had enough! Look what the US did after a single event (9/11)! If Israel really wanted to enact genocide it would have done it on October 8 in a single day. So enough with these tired claims, and support our ally whoās surrounded by 7th century mentality barbarians continually provoking it with little to no reprimand from the biased international community and sheep like sacjon who fail to see the bigger picture or are simply happy to see Jews suffer. Either reason is incredibly disappointing.
CALIB – you’re just wrong, on all counts.
How so ?
You are on the wrong side of history.
Kids should be getting an education not indoctrination as they become adults.
No matter your age sac, you are just a child and can’t see the forest for the trees.
TNKY – the “right” side of history is being OK with the killing of civilians? I really don’t believe that’s true.
And no, kids should be LEARNING at the college level about the affairs of the world and expressing their thoughts and frustrations. Accepting an unbalanced “war” that is killing tens of thousands of innocent people is not something most people are OK with.
And once again, your insults just undermine the value of anything you say. Try to grow up, mentally that is, TNKY.
CALIB – can you point to a single incidence of antisemitism by the students in the encampments, NOT the outside agitators and “professional protesters” that have soured these events, protesting Netanyahu’s barbaric policies?
People like you keep calling them antisemites without any examples. It’s easy to label an entire group as something, much harder to actually back that claim.
I’m a Jew and I support the students. Many of the students in protests across the country are Jewish. Virtually every expert on genocide says that what is happening in Gaza is genocide.
Didn’t we win WW2 by annihilating Germany and Japan – carpet bombs. fire bombs, H bombs, cities and their civilians gone? Forced a surrender.
The annihilators were heroes.
RUBAIYAT – Those were what would now be considered war crimes. Also, WWII was 80 some years ago. We have the tech to achieve results without butchering and burning civilians.
It’s terrifying that you consider this to be OK. Barbaric, really.
No, I don’ think that there is a technological answer to the problem of fighting in an urban environment populated by civilians being used as shields. You can change tactics to minimize civilian casualties, i.e., don’t carpet bomb or fire bomb the area, but if you do that you will end up taking more casualties engaging in close fighting in those circumstances. So you’re asking a government to prioritize civilian lives over the lives of their soldiers, which is part of why the IDF has taken the number of casualties they have.
Are you saying we should allow more civilian deaths to preserve soldiers’ lives? Sorry, but both sides’ soldiers signed up to put their lives on the line. The civilians didn’t. If the government wanted to preserve lives, it wouldn’t be doing what it’s doing.
Urban warfare is tough, especially in a tiny enclave like Gaza where civilians have been forced to relocate into small towns for the past 7 months. I feel bad for the lost IDF lives, but not as bad as I do for the innocent civilians.
It’s time to stop. It’s been time to stop.
Why doesnāt Hamas surrender – why donāt the palastians resist Hamas?
Hamas just offered a ceasefire agreement. Why don’t the Palestinians resist? How? Do you know much about the situation in Gaza? Who do you think has all the weapons? Not much the civilians can do against a heavily armed terrorist group that is in some sense, the only line of defense they have against the invading Israeli army. Further, how do you know there isn’t some resistance?
No ceasefire – a surrender. There is no way Hamas can win. They are responsible for all the deaths.. thousands of Hamas against millions of Palastiana – all they need is bare hands.
RUBAIYAT – I strongly urge you to read more about this 80 year conflict. The blame for deaths is and always has been on BOTH sides.
Thanks for pointing this out sacjon, I will quote you. “”Not much the civilians can do against a heavily armed terrorist group””. The exact reason we have the 2nd Amendment in our Constitution!!
SAIL – yes, because the USA is the same as Hamas. LOL!
Not quite sacjon. Armed citizens will become the militia to stand up and defend themself. Exactly why Ukraine has been able to defend itself. How the US will defend itself if attacked.
Ha ha ha! Typical gun nut fantasy there.
oh my dog that is a profoundly ignorant comparison. No, wait actually it’s TWO profoundly ignorant comparisons. You are trying waaaay too hard, Sail. Wow.
Maybe you can ask Admin to delete it for you?
That has nothing to do with the reason for the 2A.
Have you seen reports of resistance by civilians against Hamas? I have never seen that.
And beyond that, it’s pretty nuts that you would say Hamas is a “defense” against the IDF, when Hamas’ battle plan is literally to keep civilians in conflict areas and to take massive civilian casualties for their own political gain.
I never said they are resisting, I asked how they know there is NOT any. You’re putting words in my mouth/fingers again.
How do you know what their “battle plan” is at this point? Just because civilians are present in Gaza doesn’t mean they’re being used as shields. Where else are they supposed to go? How many Palestinian civilians without foreign visas/passports has Israel allowed to flee Gaza? They’re being evacuated and herded into other cities where they’re once again being bombed and bulldozed. Since Israel started this massive destruction of the Gaza enclave, civilians have been trying to get away, only to be killed en route (plenty of evidence of that) or to wind up once again crammed into small towns that then become targets. Surprising that this isn’t known to so many.
It’s really difficult to take some of this seriously given the facts.
Hamas has had the same strategy around using civilians as shields. They have been public and clear about their willingness to trade lots of civilian blood for PR. That is literally their strategy. Have you read anything about their public statements on this? It’s not hard to find.
Beyond that–words in your mouth? You said “how do you know there isn’t resistance”.
Your words.
I said:
“Have you seen any reports of resistance, I haven’t.”
And that’s me putting words in your mouth?
You said “we have the tech to achieve results without butchering and burning civilians.”
No, I don’t think we do. Urban warfare has not changed much since WW2. Unless of course you are aware of technologies that make it possible to do what you claim. What technology exactly do you think allows for this?
I’m talking about intelligence tech. Not sure I can honestly argue if you think urban warfare hasn’t changed much in the last 80 years.
You’re saying that counterintelligence has advanced to the point that the Israeli military can determine where combatants are and where civilians are in an urban warfare setting?
You think that urban warfare has changed in that regard? Show proof of that. How.
When the US military was fighting Isis in Iraq, and specifically in Mosul, the estimates are that up to 40,000 civilians were killed. And I’m pretty sure that we have the technological capacity that Israel does. That wasn’t ww2 and it was the most technologically advanced military force in history.
The notion that this war could be fought with lower civilian casualties is a fantasy.
None of that has anything to do with wether or not this war SHOULD be fought.
“The notion that this war could be fought with lower civilian casualties is a fantasy.” – Only for you and those who can’t even consider a lesser onslaught.
Look, you’ve proclaimed your bias against the people of Gaza plenty. We’re not going to agree and I’m not doing another back and forth with you, especially since you announced you were leaving here a while back….. Sorry, Alex, but I’m not.
Sac, I have never proclaimed any bias against the innocent civilians of Gaza, nor do I feel that.
Never.
Both articles are extremely general assessments of the overall evolution of war fighting. However, neither article speaks to the use of technology in close quarters urban warfare, which is what we are talking about. You cherry picking one sentence without full context which requires a far more complex analysis is ridiculous. Yes, collateral damage overall in gulf war 2 was reduced through targeted smart munitions, however, that was not the case in an urban warfare close combat setting. Again, look at the battle for Mosul. Or are you saying that the US military made a decision to reduce civilian casualties in some areas by using technology and decided not to use technology to reduce civilian casualties in other areas. No, urban warfare is its own animal, particularly against a guerrilla force which is embedded into and uses civilians as cover.
Again, you said āwe have the tech to achieve results without butchering and burning civilians.ā
No, not in urban war fighting. If you are talking about aerial combat, naval warfare, or even ground warfare in an open area where you can engage an enemy clearly and without the presence of civilians, sure.
But, guerrilla fighters such as Hamas can not engage militarily in that fashion, or they won’t survive. They must operate within chaotic environment filled with potential civilian casualties to blunt their lack of force parity.
No, ALEX, what is ridiculous is that you still honestly believe it’s a “total lie” that urban warfare hasn’t changed since WWII to allow for less civilian casualties. Unless you can prove me wrong, I think we’re done here on this topic.
Technology has advanced. Precision weapons have advanced. Intelligence has advance. Civilian deaths have decreased. There’s really nothing more I can say.
Okay, Sac, is this you needing the last word? Or do you want to again claim that I have no regard for innocent civilians as your last word? That’s where you typically end up.
“Again, you said āwe have the tech to achieve results without butchering and burning civilians.ā
Yes, and again, I said that in YOU are the one hinging on guerilla warfare and cherry picked my argument against RUBAYAIT’s statement about carpet bombing and fire bombing. YOU made this about your idea. I never once said anything about house to house combat, although I do believe even urban warfare as your so bent on has changed and evolved since WWII.
I don’t know what kind of proof you need to see that we’ve made tech advances since then, but again, it’s irrelevant to my original statement.
ALEX – the last word should be, “Oh, I see now, you were referring to fire and carpet bombing not to urban warfare as I presumed and began arguing against.”
No last word needed. And no, I don’t think you don’t care about the people of Gaza. You’re not an awful person, just a little difficult LOL
And of course you have provided zero evidence for your claim that there is technology which has changed urban warfare and makes it possible to spare civilians.
It’s a total lie.
A “total lie” that “there is technology which has changed urban warfare (since WWII) and makes it possible to spare civilians???”
Seriously? A “total lie?” How to prove that technology has advanced and allowed for less collateral damage…. Hmmmm…..
“This new war was fought with precision weapons with minimal collateral damage and with vastly improved means of real-time information, surveillance and target acquisition. ” https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/sa/sa_99anv02.html
https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/95/4/765/5513164
I mean seriously, how can you honestly believe there has been no technology since WWII that has made collateral damage less. Seriously, what a weirdly insane thing to demand proof of.
“Youāre saying that counterintelligence has advanced to the point that the Israeli military can determine where combatants are and where civilians are in an urban warfare setting?” – No, ALEX, YOU are saying that.
Please re-read my comment above in response to RUBAIYAT.
General Armchair is watching too many James Bond movies.
You donāt just find out who the target is, and then send in a kill team. Itās not like Hollywood makes it out to be and Alex is 100% right that combat has not changed much. Itās like the āwe donāt do trenches anymoreā while Russia and Ukraine are using it plenty and so did we in the Middle East.
You’re big on killing people.
Another element of the protestations that seems to be missing is this: Where is the call for other Arab states to accept/help Palestinians? Jordan, by way of example (among others), has a large Palestinian population, many of whom have been granted citizenship over the years.
The silence from among the Arab states who are affected by this war is both deafening and palpable.
Where are the protesters delivering a much-needed harangue to these States!?
Food for thought in this emotional discussion.
Talking about other states taking in Palestinians who should be allowed to stay alive in their own country misses the point. You could also advocate for welcoming Palestinian refugees in the USA, if you sincerely cared about that–no reason to single out Arab states. Funding for your refugee idea in the USA would be a better use of our tax dollars than funding the mass killing of Palestinians by Israel. No one is stopping you from advocating for that.
Jordan has zero interest in helping the Palestinian people, in fact they killed around 25,000 Palestinians who were agitating and organizing against the Jordanian kingdom.
The Arab states and neighbors have never, ever, truly cared about the Palestinian people as anything other than poker chips and puppets in their proxy wars against Israel and the USA.
So what? Why is it Jordan’s responsibility? All this is just trying to blame other Muslim countries and ignoring the cause of the mass death, homelessness and starving children. I don’t see the point.
Protesters are asking for an end to the killing, not for people to take in refugees.
Nah, it’s pointing out the double standard. When the Jordanian kingdom killed 25k PLO no one really gave a shit.
When Iraq and Iran killed a million people no one really gave a shit.
When Syria murders hundreds of thousands of their own people no one gives a shit.
When there is mass murder, ethnic cleansing and mass rape rape in Sudan and 25 million people are CURRENTLY facing starvation no one really gives a shit.
Where are the protesters? Oh right, no Israel involved.
And yeah, I will absolutely cast a certain amount of blame on Muslim countries which have funded and armed this war because they won’t or can’t take on Israel or the US directly. The fact is, if these puppet master nations wanted a sustainable peace and two state solution for the Palestinian people this could have happened decades ago.
And also I oppose the Netanyahu government, I oppose Israeli settler extremists, I oppose the current ground war in Gaza.
“And also I oppose the Netanyahu government, I oppose Israeli settler extremists, I oppose the current ground war in Gaza.” – Good to hear.
Blame the Arab countries all you want, but it doesn’t change what’s going on in Gaza and that’s been my point. Glad we agree on that.
It would be hard to pressure universities to divest from Jordan, Iraq, Iran, etc. when they weren’t contributing money to them in the first place. Israel, on the other hand, universities do fund in part, the US funds and arms. There is actually some sense of responsibility in the case of Israel. Essentially the student protests want divestment so that their hands can be clean, like they are with the states you mentioned.
I understand that point and I agree with it.
Yes it is kind of shocking how no one nearby will offer much help to the Palestinian people. One of the stated reasons Egypt and Jordan refuse to take Palestinian refugees even on a temporary basis is that they think that Israel will never allow them back into Gaza or anywhere else in their borders.
The Palestinian population has been a punching bag for decades by everyone in the Middle East, starting first and worst with Israel. Israeli “settlers’ have been forcefully taking over Palestinian homes, schools, orchards and farmland since the 1980s. They have reduced them to second class citizenship by taking away many rights, and have not seriously tried getting along in almost half a century. This conflict did not start in October of 2023
You need to be honest about the fact that the neighboring states believe that the Palestinians are a threat to their internal stability. So, yes, the public stance is that Gazans should not leave the area, and but he way I agree with that, however the reality of the agenda is more complex. When Jordan killed 25,000 members of the PLO and then transferred their population to Lebanon the PLO became a prime reason for the ensuing Lebanese Civil War. Egypt backed the PLO against King Hussein, on, and on, and on.
It really is simple.
Arabs hate Jews first, Americans second ,and themselves third.
Means they will turn on each other if they have nothing else to hate.
Always at war over something.
TNKY – the only thing “simple” here is your comment, which is 100% false from start to finish.
Man, we really need to work on our education in this country.
It is simple, It is you that have to slice and dice when you don’t agree.
Been that way for hundreds of years.
I was educated when people actually learned thing that were useful, not your DEI BS.
TNKY – that “slice and dice” you’re crying about it is called critical thinking.
You: all those people are the same
Me: No, they’re not
You: In my day we called all people who shared a similar characteristic the same thing, actual differences be damned!
Sounds like you were “educated” at a time when people weren’t allowed to drink water from the same drinking fountain as others if their skin tone was different. So…… I rest my case, Professor Tnky.
There is no monolithic “Arab” group. You’r talking about 330 million people, with all the variation of beliefs which one would expect among such a large group.
The Arab Peninsula?
You know what it means you are just being you.
Nah, you are speaking in the most broad and bigoted terms possible.
“Arabs” don’t all feel the same way about anything. To claim that “they” do is jus part of the same dehumanizing that people are laying on Americans and Jewish people.
There is no “they.”
Like Americans are from North ,South, and Central America.
It’s baffling how blatantly and casually Republicans lie even at the highest level.
They’re preparing to impeach Biden for his pause in arm shipments to Israel “if they don’t stop all operations with Hamas.” https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-gop-drafting-biden-impeachment-articles-israel-aid-cutoff-threat
Absolute lie. Biden has never once said that. The pause is due SOLELY to the incursion into Rafah, which the entire world is against, given it’s densely populated with innocent civilians. In no use of the English language or elementary logic, could it honestly be taken as a condition of cessation of “all operations with Hamas.” Biden has stated this ad nauseum and yet a Republican leader has twisted and invented language to base this impeachment effort upon.
One can more easily see now how the wildly false misinformation being thrown around by the GOP leads all the way down to those posting lies and hate online.
Misinformation, coupled with critical reasoning skills (thanks to poor education), is what is causing so much division on this and every other political topic. This needs to end.
I meant “coupled with a lack of critical reasoning skills”
Replying to anonymous. Hamas did not start this whole conflict. Are you kidding. The entity of israel has entered the Palestinian land before 1948. israel has been massacring Palestinians long before Hamas was ever created. The entity called israel has been defying the United nations legal rulings for decades. Yes Israel has a right to defend itself. Which is a dumb statement in regards to the Palestinian situation since Israel is an occupier of land that is not theirs the defence whine is not valid. They are occupiers and the Palestinians have every right to resist.. as far as Oct 7th goes Google the Hannibal directive. It’s a guideline for dealing with Israeli hostage situations they would rather see a dead Israeli than a live hostage. It makes it difficult to deal with for them. For whatever reason. Hence the israeli Apache attack helicopters shooting at every vehicle leaving the rave party killing israelis. They won’t tell you how many they killed because they don’t really know. They will lie and say Hamas did it but if you search it out and make educated comments it will sound much better. So don’t believe everything you hear on mass media channels and just know Israel has lied about every aspect of this genocide. And even if Hamas did do as your claiming and kill thousands of innocent civilians they will never ever get close to the number of civilian Palestinians killed. Israel has infiltrated our country and it’s a perfect example of the tail wagging the dog. Anyone who thinks that Hamas is the agressor in these situations. Yes they are aggressive and are finally beginning to defend themselves a little bit but it’s overwhelmingly lopsided as far as deaths go. And if you were invaded and they started killing your family to steal your land how would you feel. So it’s clear the media has been controlled by the zionists perspective and that is tainted information. The version from the mass media trys to portray Israel as a victim to the “terrorists” when it’s Israel who are the terrorists.
Also. You or whoever might cry and claim I hate Jews. Which is not even the case. Just another ploy by the entity to divert attention from their atrocities. Which the lies from the criminal entity are constant. The objective by the occupiers is to gain land. And any mistake that costs the lives of Palestinian children and women and unarmed non combattants is a lie. It’s part of their prescription for the land.
OCT 7TH WAS NOT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONFLICT. so to those who want to claim that and use it as an excuse for genocide is leaving context out that is critical to any claims of israels right to defend itself. But they don’t have the right to claim that in the first place. First they knew it was coming. The border watchers saw Hamas staging and practicing attacks. Israels border is the most protected border in the world. Most technologically surveiled border in the world. How could that have happened and they did not know. The border watchers who were women mostly. idf soldiers warned their superiors about an imenent attack because of what they were seeing. It was ignored. Everything about Israels actions and intent they lie about.
Total bigoted propaganda screed.
Lots of anti-Semitic libels here.
Jews have been there for thousands of years in an unbroken presence. They are not occupiers. Some Israelis have occupied and stolen land, some legally bought land long before 1948, and some have been there for millennia.
What is occurring in Gaza is not genocide.
The charge that āZionists control the media and the Us governmentā is a classic anti semitic lie.
Some nonsense claim that Hamas is ādefending themselvesā. They were not under attack on October 6th and a cease fire had been in place.
Your implication that what was done to women and children on October 7th was justifiable.
Rape is not resistance.
ALEX – I am honestly, just curious and not trying to start up something here, but what would you call what has been happening to the Palestinian people over the last 6 months? Just recently, almost 300 people were killed in one day in a rescue attempt to free only 4 people. Benny Gantz just quit the Israeli over what Netanyahu has been doing in Gaza. Over 35,000 people have died, most of them children. They’ve been starved, kept without aid, fresh water, or safe places to go for months now. Call it what you will, but can you really not see how some might consider what the Israeli government (not the Jewish people) is doing to Palestinians somewhat genocidal?
Again, not saying this is “genocide,” but I can easily see how many around the world watching the facts unfold on unbiased news sources could cry “genocide” without really understanding what the word means or how that concept would play out.
I disagree that to call it that is an “anti-Semitic libel” but rather a hyperbolic reaction to the undisputed horrors and destruction being laid upon the people of Gaza.
Just because Israel didn’t turn Gaza to glass in the first days, doesn’t mean what the Israeli government is doing is not something many, especially impassioned and furious people, would consider genocidal.
Genocide is literally an attempt to murder an entire people. That’s what the word means.
So I will always counter the claim that what the Israeli government is doing is genocide because the facts and the actions on the ground demonstrate without question that the Israeli government is not trying to murder an entire people.
That’s it. That’s the answer.
If people are angry and impassioned on what is happening, and they have every right to be, they are still wrong when they claim it is genocide.
So we can talk about everything else that is happening; we can talk about what should have been done that would have ben a better option after October 7th. We can talk about the conditions that led to October 7th, which certainly arose out of a history of injustice. We can talk about what level of violence is acceptable from an oppressed and weaker group of people when it is considered “resistance”. We can talk about what some individuals and groups in Israel have aspired to, which is frankly more in the realm of ethnic cleansing than genocide (all horrible, all brutal, all criminal). While we are at it, we can also talk about what Hamas and their supporters aspire to, which is the murder of every Jew in Israel, and likely beyond if they had the power.
We can talk about all of those things.
But when people claim that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza they either a.) don’t understand the word they are using or b.) understand it and are willing to misuse it as part of a PR war.
And by the way, on a more personal level, when you mention the ratio of dead civilian victims to rescued hostages, “only four people saved”… (and I’ll ignore that you are taking Hamas PR at face value on the numbers) I would literally walk over the bodies of ten thousand people to rescue my child. What’s your ratio?
Ok, ALEX, that’s your answer. I don’t disagree.
Good point about how many dead you’d be OK with, same boat here. But…. this wasn’t parents going rogue and mowing down innocent civilians to save their children, this was a government action. Difference.
And if you’re going to dispute numbers, that’s another thing. If there are more accurate and reliable numbers, love to see them.
I don’ know how much of a difference there is. No parent has the capacity to rescue a child in that particular circumstance so it becomes the job of the government. Same question I guess, if it’s your kid, what will you be okay with your government doing.
In regards to the numbers, in this kind of situation it can only ever be an estimate. And both sides will exaggerate or discount those numbers to support their propaganda. I don’t believe what Hamas has to say and I don’t believe what the Israeli government has to say.
But we see people unquestioningly reporting exactly what the Hamas Ministry of Health has been putting out about the total numbers of dead (the more the better for Hamas) and also the ratio of civilian to combatant dead (the more civilians the better for Hamas).
The inverse is true of Israeli reporting.
ALEX – So, are you saying that any amount of dead innocents, including children, is justified to rescue a couple hostages? I mean, not sure how else to interpret your comments here.
As I said, if it’s my child, yes.
Alex, I’m talking about the existing hostages. Justified or not?
It’s a terrible thing, but the government of the hostages has a duty to rescue them. They also have a duty to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. Hamas has a curtain of human shields around them. To allow that strategy to deter a rescue operation justifies and rewards the use of human shields which only puts more civilians at risk in the future. So, yes.
You are saying that any amount of dead innocent Palestinian civilians is justified to bring home some hostages. Yet you also say you “oppose” what the Israeli government is doing. You sure?
“You are saying that any amount of dead innocent Palestinian civilians is justified to bring home some hostages.”
Can you please tell me exactly where I said that. I didn’t. I wouldn’t. Because I don’t believe it.
Here’s one for you–I support the use of atomic weapons in WW2. I think it was the right thing to do. Maybe that’s unpopular or heartless enough for you to believe that I mean what I say.
“Yet you also say you āopposeā what the Israeli government is doing. You sure?”
Here’s the thing–this is an anonymous message board. If I supported what the Israeli government is doing exactly why wouldn’t I say that? It’s not as if I have been shy about my opinions or beliefs.
So, yeah, I am literally 100% sure of my position. I’ve repeatedly expressed my total disgust for Netanyahu and the entire right wing settler demographic which is really poisoning Israeli society.
You have this habit of making absolute and extreme statements about what people have “said” when they haven’t actually said it. That’s bad form.
ALEX – “bad form?” That’s just dishonest now. You said, “So, yes” In my question about whether you think “any amount of dead innocents, including children, is justified to rescue a couple hostages?”
Read the comments.
sacjon about 19 hours ago Copy Link of a Comment
ALEX ā So, are you saying that any amount of dead innocents, including children, is justified to rescue a couple hostages? I mean, not sure how else to interpret your comments here.
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AvatarAlexblue about 19 hours ago Copy Link of a Comment
As I said, if itās my child, yes.
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Avatarsacjon about 19 hours ago Copy Link of a Comment
Alex, Iām talking about the existing hostages. Justified or not?
Alexblue about 19 hours ago Copy Link of a Comment
Itās a terrible thing, but the government of the hostages has a duty to rescue them. They also have a duty to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible. Hamas has a curtain of human shields around them. To allow that strategy to deter a rescue operation justifies and rewards the use of human shields which only puts more civilians at risk in the future. So, yes.
“So, yes.”
Now, if you meant otherwise, fine. But to say you never said that or that I’m making things up, that’s just not true and the very words that were typed show that.
Perhaps you meant the operation to resuce the hostages was justified, but I took it to be an answer to the question “are you saying that any amount of dead innocents, including children, is justified to rescue a couple hostages? ”
If your words weren’t meant to convey that answer, fine, but that’s what it looks like.
Perhaps you meant the operation to resuce the hostages was justified, but I took it to be an answer to the question āare you saying that any amount of dead innocents, including children, is justified to rescue a couple hostages? ā
I said that for the life of my child I would accept any number of deaths. Yes. Absolutely. Period.
My understanding of your question was that you asked if the operation was justified. I said yes. Looking back I can see the thruline of the question, i.e., do I think that any number of casualties is justified to rescue four people. I will clarify the to say no. But that is only because I value the life of my child above any other life.
Ultimately, I suppose this is pointless. If you really want to believe that (as you have said in the past) I have no regard for the lives of civilians or Palestinian children, despite my saying the opposite over and over and over and over, you’re going to believe whatever you want.
“My understanding of your question was that you asked if the operation was justified. I said yes.”
OK, so there it is. Appears you just misunderstood what I was asking. Frankly, I’m relieved as you seem to be a sensible person and to support the deaths of any amount of innocent people for the lives of a few would be pretty awful.
You keep thinking I think you don’t care about kids’ deaths. Not true, especially since you clarified your response.
I mean clearly, from a parent of a hostage’s point of view, nothing is too much to bring them home, but that’s not how governments should implement policy. THAT would be genocidal.
Clearly he supports genocide as a means to rescue an Israeli child.
He (Netenyahu) is MOWING through the entire populous of Gaza (innocent citizens – men, women, children, schools, hospitals, shelters, and refuge camps) in an attempt to kill a tiny minority of Hamas that appear to be hiding out amongst them. Heās ok with that strategy, and so is the United States government under Biden. And thatās us, to the world. Heās representing us, and itās a horrible legacy.
Thatās a fail. I call it genocidal. You canāt accept wiping out everyone in the way to get to a few and see it any other way. Bibi – is that what they call him? is a sick war criminal. Thatās my take.
You, Alex, sound like you are on the same page as Bibi – āIāll walk over the bodies of ten thousand people to rescue my childā. So, kills of anyone else matter not as long as you have your one. Thatās sick.
Aww Basic, you’re so predictable. You know full well that I have stated on many occasions my disgust for Netanyahu.
You know it.
You lie about it anyway.
In terms of the value of my child. Yeah bro, the life of my child is more valuable to me than anyone on the planet. There’s no number of bodies that I wouldn’t go through to save my child. You don’t feel that way about your kid I guess. We are just built different that way, hopefully your kid doesn’t know you’d sacrifice them for the lives of strangers.
All experts on genocide, including Israeli experts, say this is genocide.
Lying hasbara thug Alex is not an expert on genocide.
“Genocide is literally an attempt to murder an entire people. Thatās what the word means.”
This is false.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
The author of that piece: “Raz Segal is an associate professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University and the endowed professor in the study of modern genocide.”
Who are you going to believe, him or some vulgar browbeater who yells “antisemite” at anyone who says something about Israel that he doesn’t want to hear?
Omer Bartov is an Israel-born historian and a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University. In November he wrote this piece for the NYT in which he said “As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening.” but concluded “There is still time to stop Israel from letting its actions become a genocide. We cannot wait a moment longer.” … well, time passed, and now he is of the view that genocide has occurred: https://www.voanews.com/a/independent-rights-expert-says-israel-s-war-on-hamas-in-gaza-amounts-to-genocide-/7549302.html (6:10)
Are Segal and Bartov antisemites just because some angry vulgar browbeating highly biased ideological internet troll says so? Of course not.
Here’s Omer Bartov’s NYT piece from November: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html
More from the very cautious Oler Bartov … this Israeli-born former member of the IDF and academic expert on genocide is the sort of person being called antisemitic by deeply dishonest ignorant vulgar browbeating ideologues:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-qBl-9hs3E
6:42: “My own sense is that we are now at a point where there are several signs of this being either a genocidal operation or one that is right on the brink of that.”
Aryeh Neier, co-founder of Human Rights Watch, in the latest (June 6) issue of New York Review of Books, which just dropped:
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2024/06/06/is-israel-committing-genocide-aryeh-neier/ (subscription only, I think):
”
In late December, when South Africa brought to the ICJ its accusation that Israel was committing genocide in Gaza, I did not join some of my colleagues in the international human rights movement in their support of the charge. I was deeply distressed by Israelās bombing campaign, particularly by its frequent use in densely populated areas of 500- and 2,000-pound bombsāsupplied by the United Statesāthat were killing large numbers of civilian noncombatants. (On May 8 Biden halted the shipment of such bombs to prevent their use in Rafah.) Such weapons are clearly inappropriate for use in those circumstances. Yet I was not convinced that this constituted genocide.
I thought then, and continue to believe, that Israel had a right to retaliate against Hamas for the murderous rampage it carried out on October 7. I also thought that Israelās retaliation could include an attempt to incapacitate Hamas so that it could not launch such an attack again. To recognize this right to retaliate is not to mitigate Israelās culpability for the indiscriminate use of tactics and weapons that have caused disproportionate harm to civilians, but I believe that Hamas shares responsibility for many of Israelās war crimes. Hamasās leaders knew, when they planned the attack, that Israel had the most right-wing government in its history, at immense cost to the civilian population of Gaza.
Hamasās operatives do not wear uniforms, and they have no visible military bases. Hamas has embedded itself in the civilian population of Gaza, and its extensive network of tunnels provides its combatants the ability to move around quickly. Even if Israelās bombers were intent on minimizing harm to civilians, they would have had difficulty doing so in their effort to destroy Hamas.
And yet, even believing this, I am now persuaded that Israel is engaged in genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. What has changed my mind is its sustained policy of obstructing the movement of humanitarian assistance into the territory.
…
“
Yep, this is pretty on point. Other than the point about aid. Israel blocking all aid would equal an attempt at genocide.
They haven’t done that.
“Israel blocking all aid would equal an attempt at genocide.” – With the exit of Gantz, that’s becoming a real possibility if you’ve been reading what National Security Minister Ben-Gvir has been saying…
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ben-gvir-the-cabinet-should-be-stopping-gaza-aid-trucks-not-protesters/
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240608-ben-gvir-entry-of-fuel-must-be-prevented-aid-to-gaza-reduced/
Again, the absence of a total anihilation of the entire Gazan population doesn’t mean those in power don’t have genocidal intents.
I have said repeatedly that significant factions in Israeli government and society have genocidal aspirations.
I know that you have read what I have written when I have made these statements.
You are literally agreeing with me in this post, you know that, right?
Never said otherwise, just pointing out some recent developments.
Point being, you keep slamming anyone who says the “G” word as if there’s no way in hell it could ever happen, while it’s literally on the minds of those in charge and then you swing back and say “oh, I totally oppose the Israeli government” while at the same time seeming, again from your own words, to say you fully support any deaths of Palestinian innocents, including children, to rescue a few hostages.
Your words are pretty clear. If you’re having issues with reconciling them, that’s on you.
No. I have never ever said or even implied that “there’s no way a genocide in Gaza could happen.”
Never said it. I have been extremely clear and honest about the threat and the people and factions who would carry it out. I know you have seen these statements from me more than once.
The fact that it could happen and that there are people who want it to happen doesn’t mean that it is happening.
I will correct people who claim that there is a genocide underway until there is a genocide underway. At which point, I will not correct them.
Of course in the eyes of certain intellectual thugs, Aryeh Neier–for saying Israel is engaged in genocide–is yet another antisemite. They probably assume that he’s one of them thar filthy Ayrabs. Actually, though (from Wikipedia):
“Neier was born into a German Jewish family in Berlin, then in Nazi Germany.[7] He was the son of Wolf (a teacher) and Gitla (Bendzinska) Neier, and he became a refugee as a child when his family fled in 1939 when he was two years old.[8]”
Hamas must surrender and the Palestinians must turn on Hamas
RUBAIYAT – yes, in theory that would be great and might even end the war in Gaza, but…. can you blame the people of Gaza at this point when looking through their eyes? They’re being killed by the thousands, children, babies, mothers. Who is the only source of “defense” in their eyes? Sadly, Hamas. That’s the difficult thing here. These people are fighting to stay alive from minute to minute, watching their children burn alive, limbs blown off and worse. Who is the only group on the ground fighting back against the occupying forces? Hamas. Again, sadly, this is how it is and exactly what Hamas wants – to be seen as “freedom fighters” so the people of Gaza praise them. This whole thing was easily predicted the second Israel started bombing Gaza after Oct. 7. This was all part of the plan.
It’s so easy to say “turn on Hamas,” but you have to consider this through the eyes and minds of those being bombed. Unfortunately, instead of eradicating Hamas, Israel has only emboldened it and created a new generation of terrorists. There is no “W” in this war. No one will win. Terrorism will plague the region still.
To end this, we need a release of all hostages, surrender of Hamas AND a 2 state solution, giving Palestinians their land in Gaza and the West Bank and self-governance with a legitimate government and for Israel to accept that. With the current government in Israel though, it’s not a very probable outcome. What is probable is just more death, on both sides. It’s a sad and difficult reality.
NOTE: If I’m not clear enough, let me reiterate: I’m not saying Hamas is “defending” Gaza, just that that’s likely how the people of Gaza see it, making it more difficult to rebel against them.
This is all true and there’s nothing antisemitic about it, contrary to the hasbara liars. On the contrary, it is the actions of Israel and the denials by its hasbara defenders that feed antisemitism.
John Mearsheimer on why Israel is in deep trouble:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAfIYtpcBxo
The plight of the Palestinians:
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/6/6/where_olive_trees_weep
https://whereolivetreesweep.com/