| December 3rd 2023
SACJON - we call that a statistic.
SBdiy, don't even try me on this. You'll fail.
First, I haven't disputed the overall reported humber. Miss me with that nonsense.
You also entirely miss the importance of distinguishing between military and non-military casualties. If you lump them all together then you are creating a connection between Hamas terrorists and civilians. I'm sure you don't want to make a case that they are the same because then everyone becomes a legitimate target. Best not to go down that path. So you can also stuff your mistaken assumption about my motivation for pointing out that these casualties are not equal. To "defend the indefensible"? Not by a long shot. Mixing all casualties in to one number is a cynical PR ploy-- you have to give Hamas and their proxies credit, they have done an excellent job on the PR side of things.
You also, like SacJon decide to leave the number of Israeli casualties out of that total. If you are a real humanitarian then you need to include all casualties in the conflict in the number. If you want to ignore some casualties and highlight others, then your position is morally indefensible. Unless of course you think that any human being on one side of a fence is an innocent and any human being on the other side "deserves it." In which case, well, you know what that makes you.
Lastly, yeah, I have already advocated for literally everything you have written in regards to what's next. I want peace for everyone. Period. Hamas needs to go, responsible government needs to replace them. Abbas has already shown he won't take a two state deal. So who? UN Peacekeeping plus a council of Middle Eastern nations, sure, great, do that. Flood the zone with aid and make it a wonderful place for Gazans to live freely, hell yeah. Like what could have happened back before 2006 and Hamas taking power. Gaza could be amazing at this moment if those billions stolen by Hamas had been put into building it up for peace and not for war.
Here's what you miss because you, like many others, are so blinded by your obvious bias. Cease fires and peace can only be possible when both sides want it. Hamas categorically does not. Without violence they can not be funded by their masters. And by the way, don't think for a second that I don't know that powerful stakeholders in the Israeli government and obviously Netanyahu also don't want peace. I know they don't. But, they are constrained by rules which Hamas is not, so despite any desire they may to commit Genocide, you know, actual genocide, not what is going on right now, they are unable to carry out their desires. Which of course, is a good thing. If Hamas were to surrender with conditions Israel would have no choice but to facilitate a two state solution. Hamas will not. So war.
And how about if you take "Never Again" and put it away. You tying the holocaust to current events is also part of the Hamas PR playbook--nice work carrying that water.
Lastly, the fact that you don't even address the settler issue tells me you're extremely minimally informed on what's happening there.
Go do a lot of reading. A lot.
SBDIY - So much truth. Get ready to be labeled an anti-Semite or Pro-Hamas though. Some here aren't capable of separating support for innocent people being bombed with support for Hamas or hate for Israelis.
"Again why do you include Hamas terrorists in your accounting of casualties in this conflict and not Israeli civilians or military?" - WOW. Tell me you never read my comments without telling me you've never read my comments. The thousands of dead innocent Palestinians is the topic here. I'm talking about the one side you keep ignoring - the Palestinians.
"You only seem to be terribly upset when an Israeli kills a Gazan. " - That's horseshit and you know it.
" Where's your call for Hamas to cease firing these missiles? Where is your demand for Hamas to cease hostilities and give up their weapons so a functional non-terrorist government can serve the people in Gaza? " - It's there EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I condemn Hamas and say they must be destroyed and removed from power.
"Your bias is showing." - I support the underdogs. Right now, the innocent Palestinians of Gaza (and West Bank) are the underdogs. Anyone who speaks out for them is attacked, as you've been doing. Yeah, I'm biased as hell. Hamas and the Israeli government are criminals, the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dead and mutilated innocent Palestinians are not. I speak for them. This is about them.
Your disingenuousness is glaring.
You ask why I keep pointing out the words you use? Because they use them falsely in order to push an agenda. Genocide, slaughter, and indiscriminate are powerful words and should be used honestly. You consistently fail to do that.
Again why do you include Hamas terrorists in your accounting of casualties in this conflict and not Israeli civilians or military?
Your bias is showing. Wether it is conscious or not, you clearly assign greater value to Gazans killed than Israelis. You only seem to be terribly upset when an Israeli kills a Gazan. You are only terribly upset when Israel bombs Gaza and apparently not at all when Hamas launches over eleven thousand rockets INDISCRIMNATELY (yes, the actual correct use of the word) at Israel, always attempting to inflict MAXIMUM civilian casualties. Where's your call for Hamas to cease firing these missiles?
Where is your demand for Hamas to cease hostilities and give up their weapons so a functional non-terrorist government can serve the people in Gaza?
And yet you seem to be uninterested when Arabs kill Arabs. Please let me know when you will be attending a protest against any of the ongoing Arab mass murder of Arabs. Let me know when you will devote thousands of words and many posts to those deaths.
And yet you won't.
Your bias is showing.
Yes. Not only "they did it anyway", but rather they did it because. The more innocent people die in Gaza the more Hamas believes they can maintain their hold on power and financial support from sympathizers around the world.
For Hamas, the civilians in Gaza are less than human, a means to an end, a page out of a PR playbook.
"Also, let's go right ahead and dig into one thing that you keep stating. "15k" killed" - I said it ONCE. One time. You're exaggerating and making things up again. Further, I qualified it and made my point clear by saying "mostly children," as that (and the innocent men and women) are who I'm talking about, not EVERY one of the over 15,000 killed. Well, maybe that's off, it's almost half, not "mostly."
Either way, I'll never support the continued attacks on civilians, even for the purpose of eradicating Hamas. This isn't the way.
Costs don't matter as long as it makes people feels good.
"by the way, exactly who don't you include ALL CASUALTIES when you throw out that 15k number?" - For the very reason you stated - some are Hamas. Why do you insist on ignoring the deaths of over 6000 of children? Why?
Once again, what do you call over 6 thousand dead kids and thousands more disfigured for life? You don't like the words I and others use, so do tell..... what do you call it? You can dodge and nitpick my choice of words all you want, but you really should consider the end result of all this: more children will die in this war you support. I can't accept that.
I think we're done here. Really nothing more to say to you. I am at a loss how vehemently you attack every single one of my comments in support of ending the bombing. You do you, man.
You know it's quite something--the closer attention I pay to exactly what you say, the more I see you twisting words.
I've already pointed out where you do that with the words "genocide" and "slaughter".
I'm going to add "Indiscriminate". You say that Israel is "indiscriminately bombing children."
Do you know what the word "indiscriminate" means? It means without drawing any distinction. It means, done at random or without careful judgment.
False. If it were indiscriminate as you say there there would be no leaflets, no phone calls to areas where targets have been identified, no telling the civilian population to leave an area, no effort made.
All of these things have been done.
So, again, no, you keep using these words dishonestly.
Also, let's go right ahead and dig into one thing that you keep stating. "15k" killed.
You already ignored my pointing this out, so now I'll ask you a direct question--why do you include Hamas terrorist fighters who rape, torture, murder and kidnap in that number without including ALL CASUALTIES which have occurred in this conflict?
Answer that question.
Buddy, don't lie about what I've said. I didn't say that you are crying about Gaza. Nope. But you want that because you want to depict me as being heartless and fine with indiscriminate bombing of children, etc., etc..
I said that you are crying about your perception that people are demanding that you include October 7th in every conversation about the conflict.
You're being dishonest here.
Additionally, I think that you are almost certainly a kind, intelligent and conference person. I applaud you for that.
At the same time, you are carrying water for Hamas propaganda. I'm not even saying that you are doing so intentionally but you clearly don't have the desire or will to examine your own position and statements with objectivity.
TEAMAN - how on Earth can you possibly suggest the killing of innocent people is right?
ALEX - Yeah, you're just wrong. On pretty much all counts of what I've said or not said. Just wrong.
BUT, I will concede I should have added a "most" - I'll fix that now:
" I’ve solely and only maintained that MOST people who support a ceasefire in Gaza aren’t “pro-Hamas.”
As for me "crying" about Gaza, why shouldn't I? What is your reaction to thousands of dead kids?
I get you want Hamas gone, so do I. Never said anything other than that. Where we differ fundamentally is over the cost of that wish resulting from the chosen means to attain it. I'm absolutely against the indiscriminate bombing of civilians. You're not it seems. That's really all there is to it. Nothing more to say. I've said my piece and as an intelligent person, I assumed (wrongfully) that you understood it, yet you still lambast me with your unfounded assumptions.
I can't go into the Holiday season supporting the the maiming and killing of children. My conscious won't allow it.
"These people have received more aid than any people in the world, " LOL wow! Where do you get your news? That's hilarious!
And here is another falsehood:
"I’ve solely and only maintained that people who support a ceasefire in Gaza aren’t “pro-Hamas.”
Utter horseshit. In fact, many people who support a cease fire are pro-Hamas.
You're falling for it.
Sure bud. Your take is as simplistic as any out there. Hamas, Iran, the Anti-Semites of the world who are using this whole thing as a vehicle for their hate are working really hard to make people forget about the torture, murder, rape, and kidnapping of innocent people on October 7th. The predominant rhetoric that I am seeing in these protests is not about peace it's about payback.
When you express your irritation that people are taking these folks to task for trying to blot out what happened six weeks ago, just like they tear down the posters of the kidnapped kids, trying to blot them out as if they never existed, you're falling for it.
"Believe it or not, a human is capable of feeling and expressing empathy for innocent people being bombed to death AT THE SAME TIME as condemning terrorists and having those same expressions of empathy for the civilian deaths on the other side."
Sure, you're capable of it. You just aren't doing it. You crying about how tiresome it is that people expect you to include the October 7th massacre in every discussion of the current conflict is an abandonment of what you say people can do, above.
You're literally complaining about being expected to include all of the timely and relevant information related to people murder six weeks ago and people who are currently being held hostage. What a terrible burden on you.
Beyond that, by the way, exactly who don't you include ALL CASUALTIES when you throw out that 15k number?
As I said, you perpetuating that number without including that there are literally thousands of Hamas military casualties is a total failure and is you, again buying in to Hamas propaganda.
If you want to include ALL CASUALTIES, as you are doing, then you need to include the 1200 October 7th casualties including military personnel killed defending civilians. You need to include the IDF KIA, the Israeli police KIA, and the Arab-Israeli non Jewish citizen military KIAs.
But you don't. Why is that? Do you think that Hamas KIAs should be talked about and the IDF KIAs should not be talked about? Do you think that a Hamas fighter's death is more tragic than an IDF fighter's death?
I think you are biased in ways you aren't even aware of, and it's coming through.
SBTONER - what's the figure represent?
LOL, "just answer the question". Firs time you've asked it.
I call it an avoidable tragedy. Genocide is a real word. Slaughter is a real war. You show me videos of IDF rounding up civilians, putting them against a wall and gunning them down and I will give you "slaughter". You show me that happening as a matter of Israeli governmental policy and you get to use the word "Genocide."
Stop using words falsely. Doing so is literally you playing along with the Hamas marketing and PR handbook. Use your critical thinking skills.
SBTONER - grow up. You've got a long way to go to be an adult. It shows, every day. Be better.
© 2023 by edhat
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