J.D. Vance outperformed Tim Walz for most of Tuesday night’s vice presidential debate — but the Republican’s dodgy refusal to admit that Donald Trump lost the 2020 election, when directly confronted by the Democrat, may well be all that anybody remembers about the event.
It was Yale Law School Slick versus Minnesota Nice, as Vance for much of the night displayed his superior and polished media skills. Walz’s ah-shucks style, along with his occasional deer-in-the-headlights split-screen visage, time and again was too slow and too respectful to challenge his rival’s lies on abortion and immigration, call out his sane-washing of Trump’s incoherence or counter some over-the-top attacks on Kamala Harris.
But near the end of the 107-minute affair, broadcast from New York by CBS, debate moderator Norah O’Donnell (finally!) asked about the issue of democracy, and the Jan. 6, 2021 riot that Trump fomented in a bid to stop the formal counting of electoral votes in Joe Biden’s victory. It was the first time in the nation’s history there has not been a peaceful transfer of power
Vance, in an example of the kind of glib super-spin that he employed repeatedly throughout the evening, tried to pivot away from the Jan. 6 violence by saying that Trump “peacefully gave over power on January the 20th.”
“Did he lose the 2020 election?” Walz immediately parried, looking directly at Vance.
“Tim, I’m focused on the future,” Vance fatuously responded, quickly trying to add a misdirection attack on Democrats as being the true anti-democracy party because of Facebook’s censorship of anti-vaxxers. Or something.
Walz wasn’t having it: “That is a damning non-answer,” he said, praising then-Vice President Mike Pence for defying Trump’s wishes and certifying the election.
“That’s why Mike Pence isn’t on this stage,” the Democratic vice presidential nominee said, calling Pence a “firewall against Donald Trump” that would not exist in a second term, because Vance would go along with whatever Trump ordered him to do.
It was by far the most dramatic, and most consequential, moment of the debate, and the Harris campaign put out the word shortly after the event ended that they already were making an ad out of it. Given the consistent, too-close to call polling on the campaign, the nation’s bitterly divided tribal politics, and the fact that vice-presidential debates rarely matter much in any case, it is likely to be the most lasting exchange of the night.
Three other takeaways.
Immigration
Vance dominated the first half of the debate, offering rose-colored recollections about the economy during the Trump years, and landing blow after blow on immigration, with flurries of statistics and sharp arguments about purported amounts of fentanyl, child trafficking and criminals coming into the country illegally over the Mexican border under the Biden-Harris Administration. Walz defended against the onslaught only weakly, and failed to prosecute the case about Trump and Vance’s vicious and reckless attacks on legal Haitian immigrants in Ohio.
Abortion
Walz’s best sustained moments came in the exchanges about abortion rights. While Vance unctuously said his party had “to win back people’s trust” on abortion rights and flat-out lied about his previously stated support for a national ban, Walz told the stories of three women who had died, suffered or, in the case of a 12-year old rape victim, been forced to carry a baby to term because of restrictive state abortion laws passed since the 2022 repeal of Roe. v. Wade, making clear why Trump’s facile argument about sending abortion back to the states is dangerous and deadly.
Civility
For the most part, however, Walz and Vance were cordial, at times affable, and sometimes even agreeable with each other, in sharp contrast to the kind of rudeness, crudeness and nasty name-calling with which Trump characteristically fills his own debate performances. It was the kind of substantive and courteous debate that used to be unexceptional in American campaigns, and the fact that it was notable is a sad commentary on how he has coarsened and damaged our politics and culture.
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Today’s crowning glory:
Melania Trump passionately defends abortion rights in upcoming memoir
“It is imperative to guarantee that women have autonomy in deciding their preference of having children, based on their own convictions, free from any intervention or pressure from the government,” the Republican nominee’s wife writes, amid a campaign in which Donald Trump’s threats to women’s reproductive rights have played a central role.
“Why should anyone other than the woman herself have the power to determine what she does with her own body? A woman’s fundamental right of individual liberty, to her own life, grants her the authority to terminate her pregnancy if she wishes.
“Restricting a woman’s right to choose whether to terminate an unwanted pregnancy is the same as denying her control over her own body. I have carried this belief with me throughout my entire adult life.”
No one is “pro-abortion”. Can any right winger say anything intelligent and honest, ever?
Really gullible, eh?
That was reported today in the Guardian but no sources were cited. Hopefully the publisher or some other source will confirm.
…closest I could find was this one (not my first choice for reference points):
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/melania-trump-abortion-rights-donald-memoir-b2623168.html
Good link. Don’t know if it was an update, but the Guardian now says they’ve obtained a copy of Melania’s memoir which will be published next week:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/02/melania-trump-memoir-defends-abortion-rights?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
They said that in the original article. It’s common for large news organizations to obtain books early.
Today in Washington Post:
“She [Melania] followed that up with a social media video [on X] Thursday declaring: “There is no room for compromise when it comes to this essential right.””
All of which has more than a few people wondering what’s going on. Why has Trump chosen this particular moment to finally make a splash — really her first ripples of any kind — in the 2024 election? And a splash that sounds so different from her husband and elevates a troubling issue for him?
Many on the left are convinced it’s strategic. And there’s something to be said for that.
Former president Donald Trump has sought rhetorical distance from the hard-line antiabortion elements in his party, as this issue has increasingly troubled and politically endangered the GOP. Trump is trailing badly among women, particularly educated women. He has tried to label this a state issue and leave it at that, even spending months declining to weigh in on an abortion rights amendment that will be on the ballot in his home state of Florida. (He ultimately came out against it, even as he has criticized six-week abortion bans like the one Florida has.)
What better way to wink and nod at the idea that maybe the Trumps didn’t believe in this stuff all along and that women who think abortion rights are important should feel comfortable voting for him? Trump, after all, once pronounced himself to be “strongly pro-choice.”
I believe her as much as I believe him. In case you need it spelled out, I don’t believe them.
Free link to article in Washington Post:
https://wapo.st/3ZL7c8M
Wasn’t slavery also a state issue?
Eugene Robinson, Washington Post, 10/3/24
I quote good writers because they say what I’m thinking better than I could.
“With a month to go until the election, voters have been given the perfect distillation of the myriad reasons Donald Trump must never again be president: “So what?”
“That is what Trump said during the shocking and bloody Capitol insurrection on Jan. 6, 2021, when told his vice president was being hustled to safety, according to court papers filed Wednesday by special counsel Jack Smith. So what if the rioters were chanting “hang Mike Pence” as they stalked the halls? So what if the mob beat and trampled scores of police officers and forced members of Congress to flee for their lives?
“Any decent human being would have been alarmed, or at least concerned. But according to the court filing, Trump’s display of callousness came just minutes after he had egged the mob on, declaring in a tweet that “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done.”
“So what?” That has been Trump’s one constant policy position, his North Star: Nothing really matters. He was for abortion rights his whole life, but to win a Republican nomination he had to be antiabortion, so he changed. But then the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, thanks to the three justices he appointed, and he saw how unpopular the ruling was, and so now he shifts back and forth on the issue, depending on the audience.”
trump going from pro-choice to anti is disgusting obvious pandering to the conservative evangelical vote. He doesn’t care about the issue, just the votes.
Anyone who dismisses the attack on our democracy has no business any where near the Oval Office.
His quote went something like this (Gus’s Dad!);
“What I’m concerned about is where is the firewall with Donald Trump? Where is the firewall if he knows he could do anything, including taking an election and his Vice President’s not going to stand to it. That’s what we’re asking you, America. Will you stand up? Will you keep your oath of office even if the President doesn’t?”
Selecting a candidate, to replace the elected democratic nominee, without having received a single vote is an attack on our democracy….
In fact, she never received 1 vote the last time she actually ran, she dropped out.
Just con disinformation. Nothing about our democracy includes the selection of candidates. Even people with half-eaten brains, or severe cased of NPD are free to contend.
OOPS – not even close. She broke no laws. She didn’t try to violently overthrow an election. Also, we voted her in as VP so there’s that……
Heck, even convicted criminal felons are allowed to run.
So you have no understanding of how the primary process works.
What if Trump dies. You saying that the GOP can’t run a candidate for President in that scenario?
You MAGA people who are trying to claim Harris somehow can’t run for President are ridiculous.
OOPS – My cousin was a CA delegate this year (we saw her a few times during live coverage). You might want to know state primaries/caucuses elect convention delegates, not the eventual presidential candidates. The latter are voted on by delegates at each party’s National Convention. Each party has their own rules committee which decides rules for determining their candidates. They can be complicated. But importantly, the Democrats’ convention rules allowed delegates to, after debate – it’s not automatic, vote for Harris after Biden stepped down.
A similar thing happened in 1968 when RFK was assassinated. His delegates eventually went with Humphrey (which lead to a real weiner, Richard Nixon).
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-presidential-nominating-process
https://daily.jstor.org/all-the-way-with-lbj/
Facts and established truths are a MAGAt’s kryptonite!
Not only do these MAGA cult members not understand how our Democracy functions, they really don’t care.
This proves to me that Repubs are scared. “Oh, the poor dems didn’t get to vote for her.” We did. For VP. Probably a whole lot of us voted for Biden in the primaries BECAUSE of her. I was basically voting for Harris and Biden came along for the ride. Would have voted for her last time too, but she dropped out before California voted.
But I digress. You guys are scared. And honestly, I think that’s why we are seeing these assassination attempts on TFG. By Republicans. Because they are afraid he will lose and they want to replace him. (Not the party in general, but the specific shooters.)
Stop embarrassing yourself (and the entire political wing you’re a part of).
https://lincolnproject.us
Should I say it again?
No one cares, bro
BI – Could you tell us which of your many ludicrous comments you plan to repeat?
LOL, say what?
Look, you’re an expert. On…pretty much everything, right? So can you explain exactly what votes Kamala Harris should have gotten and failed to get in order to be nominated by the Democratic Party as their candidate?
Wow, no man. It’s “shut up and vote”. Simple as that. I guess it’s not registering with one or two posters here. Oh well…
Oh, so nothing of any substance whatsoever from you. Standard.
The most obvious thing to say about this is comment is “practice what you preach”. I mean you don’t even pretend to take your own advice, so why keep on giving it?
Right, your dishonest hypocritical absurdities don’t “register” with people who aren’t idiots … imagine that.
With the honor system of voter ID I don’t know how to tell the winner.
We tell the winner by counting the votes. You apparently prefer to tell the winner by throwing doubt on the votes against you. (And really, if anyone has violated the “honor system” it is Trump–just find me 11k votes).
Exactly RHS. The only voter fraud that was discovered in the 2020 election was among Republican voters.
Facts.
This is what you get for following DJT. Confusion, chaos, uncertainty and fear, followed immediately by the desperate belief that only he can “save” you.
You’ve joined the cult and you don’t even know how, when or why.
By every objective measure taken, and there have been an extraordinarily large number of them taken, the 2020 presidential election was the fairest and most trouble free ever held. The amount of fraud was minuscule and statistically meaningless, mostly done by Trump voters but still meaningless. Recounts were done in every locale where the votes were close and not a single state or county switched their conclusions. The many overt attempts to overturn the will of American voters, done entirely by the GOP or DJT himself, were thwarted at every turn by honest officials, or just failed spectacularly such as in AZ, and the consequences of those attempted crimes continue to roll out.
Calling it the “honor system” is an ignorant insult to the work of hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens who work on your behalf to reveal the true and fair representation of the choices of American voters, and you should be ashamed of it.
Well said, KIRK. As you can see from his/her comments, RUBY has absolutely no shame. Either by way of catastrophic ignorance or by intentional ill will, it’s really hard to tell.
Facts are meaningless to these folks.
There’s a saying which is apropos:
“The righteous promiser little and deliver much. The wicked promise everything and deliver nothing.”
That’s Trump in a nutshell.
Stop embarrassing yourself (and the entire political wing you’re a part of).
Why…?
https://zillow.mediaroom.com/2024-02-29-Home-buyers-need-to-earn-47,000-more-than-in-2020
Lots of reasons. Presidents aren’t wizards, despite what you folks seem to think.
Mostly because of grifters in real estate who model themselves after tfg.
What a bunch of bias malarky! Propaganda!!
Vance clearly won the debate and the left cannot handle it.
Why can’t any right winger spell “biased”?
But if you want to insist that “J.D. Vance outperformed Tim Walz for most of Tuesday night’s vice presidential debate” is biased malarkey and propaganda, you go right ahead.
The way Vance was presenting his answers were shockingly slick and dishonest, gaslighting at it’s peak.
Answering the January 6 question with “Trump made a peaceful transition on January 20 possible”,
talking about Obamacare in a way that “Trump saved Obamacare”, and many others make clear that here is a person who wants to rewrite history and facts.
Scary that this person could be a heartbeat away from the Presidency!
And that is far from the worst:
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/maddow-jd-vance-wants-to-destroy-anything-conservatives-can-t-control-220525637945
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/watch-rachel-maddow-lays-out-why-you-should-care-about-jd-vance-s-real-agenda-220521029601
Vance is vastly worse than most people know or that is revealed in such a “debate” (nothing like how actual debates are done) with all the questions and subject determined by shallow and uninformed “moderators”. By his own words, he wants to destroy the universities, rip out the government “like a tumor”, and establish a dictatorship.
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/maddow-jd-vance-wants-to-destroy-anything-conservatives-can-t-control-220525637945
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/watch-rachel-maddow-lays-out-why-you-should-care-about-jd-vance-s-real-agenda-220521029601
Thank you yo everyone for admitting you voted for our current administration. Thank you for ruining our country. Thank you for the highest inflation rate since the great depression, in fact, even worse than the great depression. Don’t believe me? Do your HW and stop watching and relying on the corporate owned and controlled media. If you guys still haven’t figured it out by now, you’re a lost cause.
What a patsy.
Ok, we intelligent informed honest decent people are lost causes … so go away and stop with your pathetic attempts at gaslighting.
BS – Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s massive media empire – a gigantic corporation which he micro-manages (controls). Is that what you were referring to? I agree. Stop watching that stuff – repeating their drivel only makes you seem, shall we say, uneducated?
Thank you to all those admitting that you voted for our current administration. Thank you for ruining our country. Thank you for making my life so difficult with your mandates and inflation. The worst inflation since the great depression, in fact, statistically speaking, it is worse than the great depression. And to think you have the audacity to vote for this again is mind blowing to me. You people are literally the worse. I’m not even a Trump fan, but it sure as heck doesn’t take much common sense or much research to look at the actual politics of these people. You people vote based off emotions and ideologies instead of what the candidates actual politics are. This country is on the brink of collapsing and all you seem to care about is the right for a woman to kill her baby. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
DEAKBS – no shame here at all. Proud American here. We believe in freedom and truth.
You should consider seeking objective and factual sources for your information.
Okay, Deakbs, let’s have it.
Exactly how has your life been negatively impacted by a Biden administration policy.
“it sure as heck doesn’t take much common sense”
It takes more than what you’ve got.
I’m intelligent (former officer of Mensa, 2 SD above the norm), informed, honest, ethical, a decent good person. That’s why you and I disagree on virtually everything. As is said, “every right wing accusation is a confession”.
https://x.com/LisPower1/status/1841576005544157540
https://x.com/SueZieCue/status/1431631196375633920
Deflection much?
https://www.newsweek.com/gavin-newsom-bans-california-requiring-id-vote-1961685
Biden has been very weak as a world leader, representing our country, and Harris looks to be no better. But hey…
Aha, “Biden weak as a world leader.”
How.
“Harris looks to be no better”
She’s never been President has she. So, you can’t really predict the future can you.
And also, you know, like, “shut up and vote” or whatever.
ALEX – haven’t you heard? Not only can Cons see into the future, but Dems can now conjure up hurricanes!
Also, BASIC has demonstrated time and again an incredibly low level understanding of how foreign policy works, so no surprise here.
Just out? (This is so good I had to pass it along) “Opinion: New Jan. 6 court filing shouldn’t scare voters. Trump would never do that again!” {note: hoping it’s satire?}
https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-jan-6-court-filing-091444656.html