Tourists and Dining During COVID?

That's refreshing to read SBSBSB. I've always appreciated our strong and close nit community here, especially during the (what seems like) regular disasters we've had here over the past decade. While it's very important that we support each other through yet another one, I'm not sure where things were flipped upside down for people to get this idea that everyone else is responsible for your safety vs. you being responsible for your own safety. Stay home, stay safe, be responsible, venture out into this dangerous world only if you choose.

No, SBSB, you should comply with common sense and scientific facts and not go to a barber shop. What a crazy self-indulgent model you present. You can't do without someone cutting your hair while meanwhile thousands of your community are suffering and dying from a disease that is being transmitted by fools like you? This is really disgusting.

No new "evidence" indicating this is coming to light. Total disinformation.

Did u read the article of mayor lightfoot? And SFgate just wrote an article on this. Is gate not a reliable source? Is mayor lightfoot not reliable either?

I also just saw an article on Fox News that epidemiologists are looking into if it caused the surge. It’s today’s headline. I know Fox News is probably not reliable either.

Lori Lightfoot is not an epidemiologist, so, no, she is not qualified to say this. I did read the article because you suggested it, but this is all reliant on a glaring fallacy - saying one thing caused another. Poor human behavior caused the surge. Not closing restaurants. The underlying factor is not closing restaurants, it is citizens willful rejection of rules and best practices.

Of course if you selectively ignore the new evidence there won’t be any new evidence.

I'm only selectively ignoring fallacious and sloppy opinions.

Gov. Cuomo and the NY State health department must not be reliable as well. Nor Gov. Newsom for that matter. If you stick your head far enough into the sand you’ll always be right.

I'm certain you're a big fan of Cuomo and definitely believe everything he, his friends like Gavin, and bureaucratic state agencies say, right? Definitely seems like VOR to buy wholesale into whatever the "authorities" tell him. You should realize that I'm backhandedly complimenting you because clearly I don't believe you're that stupid. Regardless of the specifics of the debate at hand, it is a truly ironic (and ultimately unsuccessful) for you of all people to imply that we should believe something because Bureaucrat X said it. And for the record, I believe restaurants were perfectly safe to keep open outdoors, I believe the problem was regularly meeting up with other households whether at said restaurants or bars, or at private residences.

Oh, forgot about the head of the California Health and Human Sevices. He also said the dinning ban wasn’t about the safety of dinning but about trying to force people not to gather.

And does that not support the exact point I made? Maybe you don't actually read what I write.

Then it gets back to your erroneous thinking that forcing people to isolate for 10+ months is actually an option. Let's just mandate world peace, ok. Everyone listen, we're just not going to make war anymore, we're going to disband our militaries and all live in peace love and harmony. Simple really, we'll just do that...

to compile a list of fallacious and sloppy opinions: doctor of epidemiology at UCSF, multiple Sandford professors and their peers / editors who reviewed their study, the CDC, the WHO, multiple state public health departments and governors, and that just the past 24 hours. Am I missing anyone?

Great point. I agree. Don't you think if there WAS evidence of spread from outdoor dining, we would have seen it by now?

We did see it. That's why it was stopped.

Would you be kind enough to show your evidence on outdoor dining.

when asked by the judges, both LA and SD county were not able to produce any evidence in their respective lawsuits that showed dinning with safety measures in place was a source of spread for covid 19.

Very sadly, I will never again regularly patronize a local business I loved and spent hundreds at and visited nearly every day because when the mask mandate was put into effect, they allowed endless people to come in without masks on. This was well after it was local law and no longer a suggestion. They got flack for staying open during the initial shutdown which I didn't agree with - I think with precautions (like masks!) certain elements of businesses should be open, however, once they let people ignore masking rules, they showed that they put some customers' feelings about masks over others' safety. That was the end of our relationship for the most part. Sucks, too, because I really miss them.

When I say hundreds btw I meant hundreds every month.

What a weird, creepy, and baffling thing to say. Small businesses are one of the main things I love about this town. I will continue to support them as long as I feel safe doing so. As a cancer survivor (5.5 years in remission and hoping for a lifetime), I take COVID seriously. Why is it too much for me to ask that a business enforce local laws so that we CAN stay open? Why do the demands of the few take precedence over the needs of the many?

I like how you bring up the laws SBTownie, because these mandates violate the state constitution and laws in place. Several court cases are challenging this but the court process is slow and in the meantime the governor can still rule like a dictator. There will be eminent domain lawsuits for years as a result of this. How can a businesses enforce local laws to stay open when those laws aren't letting them open? Why do the demands of the few (the at-risk) take precedence over the need of many (everyone else)?

You believe enforcing mask wearing is an eminent domain issue? Are you a lawyer? Maybe there is a technicality I'm missing because this has nothing to do with eminent domain, or in other words the right of the national, state, or local government to take property for public use. Explain how you think this is an eminent domain issue? As for the constitution, neither the US nor State constitution make any reference to masks, but the 10th amendment in the US constitution says, “powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." This means we can make laws, as we see fit, as long as they are not in conflict with constitutional rights. Show me where a mask mandate violates our State and US constitution. You have no constitutionally granted right to not wear a mask during a pandemic, even with regard to claiming that as part of your first amendment rights. The government has jurisdiction over exercises of the first amendment that relate to public health and safety and there is a well established track record of rulings preserving the authorities' rights to curb "first amendment" behavior if it is a direct threat to public health and safety. You can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater, and so on.

And what are you talking about? "How can a businesses enforce local laws to stay open when those laws aren't letting them open?" Literally what are you saying? The situation you are describing is nonsensical in the context of the story I shared. A business WAS open, it was allowed to be open per all local and state and federal rules, it was operating as such, and it did not enforce local rules on face coverings. Your comment doesn't even make sense. Over and out.

not masks Sbtownie, the arbitrary closing of businesses. If a business can operate safely, they can't be forced to close just because governor wants to force a different behavior (people gathering). Especially when so many other businesses like big box stores are allowed open with everyone crammed in. At the same time the government is forcing businesses to close, they're demanding they still pay their property taxes, licensing, fees, permits, etc.... it's criminal and not supported by any law.

Except it wasn't arbitrary, and businesses cannot operate safely in a pandemic.

If worried about contracting the Covid from a restaurant then do not go there. Simple solution.

Yes, just catch it from someone else who went there. Simple.

Great point, Voice. Mandates and proclamations are not 'law' unless legitimate authorities make them so. Neither the State Legislature nor most local authorities have done so, excepting local municipal codes making 'violations' infractions, in a few cases misdemeanors. And, as you point out, even where that has happened, there are significant constitutional issues to play out. In the meantime, good businesses are being destroyed, at the whim of politicians. Latest casualty on my radar, the iconic Beachside Bar and Cafe. What a stupid, useless loss.

Beg to differ, -3922, the decisions on which venues and businesses could operate and how were entirely arbitrary. Closing playgrounds and beaches? Made no sense. Nail and hair salons, barbers shut down, but dentists can operate literally face-to-face; outdoor dining banned and movie theaters, but no problem shopping at home depot or the grocery stores. This is why a lot of people do not respect the rules.

Oh, really, is masking actually a law? I guess I missed that. Can you please provide the municipal code citation for that? I do always mask in public but didn't know it was a crime not to. Thank you in advance.

You have a long way to go to become a lawyer.

It really is infuriating. I too own a business and following all the rules shut down 10 months, and it pains me that I see ppl traveling gathering with friends etc. sucks!!

Masks are only part of the solution and none of this is keeping your kids out of the classroom, just the governor and teachers unions. Private schools have been open and out break free for months , and that’s just here in SB.

VOR - wrong. An elementary in the Hope district just closed (or is about to) due to an outbreak there. Multiple schools have multiple infections. I know, because I have multiple family members that are teachers in local schools. 2 months ago, I would have gladly sent my kids to school and wholeheartedly agree that the teacher's unions prevented that. BUT, not now. With the rate of infection we have now, I'd never let me kids in school. You can't blame the unions and Newsom for the current situation.

Why can't you grasp this simple concept? High numbers are keeping our kids out of school, off the playing field, and businesses closed, whether you agree or not with those decisions. If we decrease the rate of spread, those things can start opening and happening again. By wearing masks when within 6 feet of others out of your household and generally avoiding close proximity situations (such as what's happening in the photo), then you help those numbers go down. That is A FACT. You cannot dispute that taking precautions will help. Avoiding contact will help. Wearing a mask will help. It's established fact. SO....... when you have people REFUSING to do those things that help the numbers go down, people blame them. I do.

Interesting info on Hope, Jon. Thanks for sharing.

1) have absolutely never said precautions shouldn't be taken. 2) why can't your grasp that the efforts of our state to manage covid 19 haven't worked, excuses don't matter, it either works or doesn't. And the path of authoritarianism our governor has chosen hasn't worked.

VOR - sum up, in one sentence, your opinion on covid. I'll go first:

Everyone needs to make an effort to avoid unnecessary activities that increase the risk of exposure, avoid ALL indoor gatherings and wear a mask at all times where social distancing is impossible.

It's pretty simple. If everyone followed the rules, our numbers would be lower and businesses and schools would be open again. Simple. Your turn.

That sums it up Sac, and had our state encouraged personally responsibility along those lines all along (which brings people together and unifies our response) over playing politics and acting like a dictator (which naturally alienates and divides people) we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today, small businesses wouldn't be dying, hundreds of thousands wouldn't be out of work and wondering how their going to avoid eviction when the mortarium ends, and our hospitals wouldn't be as overwhelmed. Forget about political affiliations, since summer Florida has been a model on how to respond long-term to covid 19 and since then have performed better than CA on every single metric. They don't have mask mandates but people still wear them, they don't have arbitrary business closures but people still act responsibly. You and others need to get away from the "if only everyone followed the rules". 1st, never before in history has everyone followed the rules, and 2, other states have shown they can achieve lower numbers without drawing up a list of "rules"..

VOR - did Florida lockdown only at-risk and elderly? Is that where you keep getting that idea?

Watch their reaction when you show them a slight view of your gun.