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Excavation
updated: Jul 13, 2012, 12:10 PM

By Edhat Subscriber

Excavating part of a back yard on the west side, we came across chunks of concrete with live ammo embedded. What to do? The Police came by and basically said to be careful.

Comments in order of when they were received | (reverse order)

COMMENT 297163	2012-07-13 12:20 PM
Don't worry about it. Ammunition contains a tiny amount of smokeless powder that requires an external heat source to ignite--ie, you throw it in a fire, or you set off the primer (which is so hard to do that you'd basically have to be *trying* to set it off). Even if you got the powder to ignite, it wouldn't really do much more than make some noise because you have to contain the explosion and focus it in a single direction to achieve propulsion. That's why guns have barrels.
COMMENT 297177	2012-07-13 12:49 PM
Dear OP: I'd be cautious but not overtly paranoid. Don't be hitting the concrete with hammerjacks and don't throw it in a fire. If you want more expertise in this realm, call various local military installations (I'd probably start with the SeaBees (sp?)). I worked on a remediation of a former military site, years ago where the embedded ballistic materials were more troublesome, very large caliber things. My point being there's specialists around that can give you answers and point out proper technique. Anyway, where impact-resistant eye-gear, use gloves, try to avoid hitting the ordnance.
COMMENT 297222	2012-07-13 03:26 PM
7163.... I'm afraid you don't understand the chemistry and the physics of firing a weapon. When barrels get plugged and a cartridge is discharged the rapidly expanding gases have to go somewhere and can result in bursting the barrel wide open and releasing the projectile too. A live round embedded in concrete is much the same as a round in a plugged barrel with the difference being that the cartridge itself is not held in place in the gun's firing chamber and could dislodge rapidly back towards persons nearby. And it's not just the application of fire to the primer cap that will set off the reaction, a sharp blow to the primer has the same effect. If you have to bust up the concrete do not strike the primer cap with a sharp blow. As the cops said... be careful.
BECKY	2012-07-13 03:42 PM
I work at a very small ammo factory (yes, right here in Goleta), and the advice you already got is correct. Ammo is not small bombs. Only the primer "explodes" when hit (like the cap guns many of us had as kids). It is recessed slightly so that it is hard to detonate without being directly struck fairly hard. Even if cartridges are in fires, potentially causing a heat detonation, the case flies off if/when the primer detonates, not the bullet. The bullet, being heavier, will largely stay in place. If you don't jack hammer it or hit it with hard, sharp objects, the chance of it going off is almost nil. Additionally, primers are chemically sensitive, and usually cease to be explosive when contaminated. Ditto with powder getting wet. ("Keep your powder dry" is a famous phrase for a reason.) It would not surprise me if the concrete had already largely taken away the explosiveness of the primers or the burn characteristics of the powder contained in the case. Reasonable caution is all that is required. Please call or email me if you have further questions. Both are available from our web site (though the phone # has changed): www.customcartridge.com. HTH.
COMMENT 297236	2012-07-13 03:50 PM
While water adds some weight to the rubble, you might soak the concrete before and during demo.
COMMENT 297332	2012-07-13 06:59 PM
Sorry, but as someone who actually has experience with weapons and ammo, any kind of small hit to the strike point of the ammo can cause it to go off. You SHOULD be careful and you SHOULD be worried. You SHOULD be overly-cautious. All it takes is one small hit to the right spot and a live round can go off and seriously injure or kill someone. As a former soldier, I can tell you that this happens more than the well-meaning here would like you to believe. I would either contact the police again and explain that you want the rounds removed and disposed of safely. You can also contact the EPA in help with names of organizations that can come and help you remove the live rounds. Make no mistake, this is dangerous. I'm sorry you're going through this.
COMMENT 297346	2012-07-13 08:10 PM
Concrete scrap normally is ground to make road base but maybe this should go to a landfill instead.
COMMENT 297440	2012-07-14 08:42 AM
Becky, you may work in an ammo factory but your information is wrong. Live ammo are exactly "small bombs." A bomb also has a detonator like a primer. It's true that black powder was often useless when wet, but modern powders and primers have a good chance of working at least when they dry out. A piece of shell or concrete can kill you just as sure as a bullet. You should call the police back and tell them to take the stuff and dispose of it properly. You might call the local national guard base and see what they say also.
COMMENT 297588P	2012-07-14 01:40 PM
For those questioning Becky's advice you should do a little research on her work. You've got a real, live, expert authority on guns and ammunition chiming in on this post. She doesn't "work" in an ammo factory, she the co-owner and operator. Having purchased both firearms and custom ammo for my firearms at Custom Cartridge i can assure you there is no higher authority on ammunition in the county. The fact that our local SWAT teams would choose Custom Catridge's Hush rounds to ensure civilian safety by preventing shoot through should tell you enough about their legitimacy. Sorry for the rant, i just won't sit here and watch good folks like Becky be slandered by anonymous trolls on edhat.
GARFIELD	2012-07-14 02:44 PM
Becky is the expert. The rest of us have more good intentions than good information. At the risk of adding to the confusion I concur that you should drop a chunk into your trash every week, so that it goes to the landfill. If you need to break it up, lay it with the ammo side in dirt and use the sledge to hit an area with no ammo showing. Pile a shovel full of dirt against any exposed cartridges to capture possible eruptions. To be more helpful requires a bit more information. What size/caliber is the ammo? .22 caliber is different from it's larger cousins. Are these chunks mostly concrete, with a few cartridges thrown in, or is it a more like a box of ammo into which concrete has been poured? If the police just said to be careful, that is the best information, as they have seen your concrete. Remember, it is also dangerous to break plain concrete with a hammer, as small pieces of rock fly out at high velocity, just like a bullet from a barrel.
COMMENT 297881	2012-07-15 04:40 PM
Argument from authority is a fallacy, and Garfield should speak only for himself, as other posters do have good information. "keep your powder dry" is from Oliver Cromwell ... things have changed since then.

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