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Two Vandenberg beaches are a few strikes away from closure f...

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COMMENT 299722P	2012-07-20 10:38 AM
I'm all for the snowy plovers, but...punishing ALL local beachgoers for the stupidity of a few makes no sense. Cite those who break the rules, but don't punish everyone. That would be like closing Hendry's because a few dog walkers took their dogs off leash in the on-leash area and the dogs bothered people, or closing Yosemite because a few campers didn't store their food from bears correctly. Don't punish everyone for the stupidity of the few, especially in N. County where beach access is relatively rare.
COMMENT 299734P	2012-07-20 10:54 AM
It sounds like there is an issue catching the few people violating the habitat. Maybe people who want to enjoy the beach should volunteer to man those areas and deter people from going where they aren't supposed to. There is a group that does something similar for seals in Carp isn't there? Also, why are the plovers going extinct? Were they hunted to this point or have there numbers simply declined over time? Some species just don't make it, haven't we learned that by now?
COMMENT 299745P	2012-07-20 11:10 AM
The decline of Snowy Plovers is a direct result of human activity. The blase attitude that species simply decline over time is completely unacceptable and a cop-out. Humans are far more responsible for species decline than any other factor. Unselfish humans like to minimize their impact on other species on this planet, and allow them to live in the best possible co-existence. "Snowy plovers have natural predators such as falcons, raccoons, coyotes, and owls. There are also predators that humans have introduced or whose populations they have helped to increase, including crows and ravens, red fox, and domestic dogs. Humans can be thought of as predators too, because people drive vehicles, ride bikes, fly kites and bring their dogs to beaches where the western snowy plover lives and breeds. All of these activities can frighten or harm plovers during their breeding season. Energy is very important to this small bird. Every time humans, dogs, or other predators cause the birds to take flight or run away, they lose precious energy that is needed to maintain their nests. Often, when a Plover parent is disturbed, it will abandon its nest, which increases the chance of a predator finding the eggs, sand blowing over and covering the nest, or the eggs getting cold. This can decrease the number of chicks that hatch in a particular year. Did you know that a kite flying overhead looks like a predator to a plover? A kite over a nesting area can keep an adult off the nest for long periods of time. "
COMMENT 299749	2012-07-20 11:16 AM
The Plover decides to nest in the sand in close proximity to the ocean, to predators, to humans frequent. Why can't we accept the fact that the bird isn't that smart in the first place and let nature take it's course (like the way of the Dodo)? With that said, what if a California Condor swooped down on a Plover nest and destroyed it.... survival of the fittest?
COMMENT 299752	2012-07-20 11:17 AM
Trying to cite the ones that break the rules would require a constant police presence. At sands, there is someone with their dog off the leash every 20 minutes. The plovers are threatened because we have taken over their only natural habitat. They were never hunted by dogs, larger birds, humans, or other predators of our size. Sure its natural for some species to die off, but when you literally give them no recourse for natural selection, they tend to all die. Mass killing of multiple species in a short span of time is not a good thing for anybody and is NOT how evolution works. Sure we can enjoy some of the beaches, but its selfish and foolish to think we can control every domain.
COMMENT 299756	2012-07-20 11:23 AM
I agree with post 749. I mean c'mon, call it like it is, the bird has to evolve a little to survive. Just like we did/are.
COMMENT 299734P	2012-07-20 11:32 AM
It may be selfish but the fact is we can control this beach. It is also true that this species of bird is very delicate. When a new species is introduced, like say humans, a species can either adapt or die out. Kite flying keeps the birds off their nests? Some birds would pair up and try to take down the kite if they saw it as a threat. These are survivors. Anyone can make a case for humans irrevokably changing any species habitat. I have no interest in going to these beaches so this doesn't really effect me but I find some people's stance on this subject very interesting. Much like the condor, I will not call them California Condors because the breeding stock was taken from elsewhere to increase their numbers, this species had its shot. Species were dying off long before humans "took over" the planet.
COMMENT 299767	2012-07-20 11:41 AM
I`m happy to read some of [most] the opinions re: "Survival of the fittest" as the rule. You see, I`m a decorated combat vet of 2 conflicts who went to prison for 8 yrs. because of PTSD[could`nt control myself] & now it`s near impossible to work & support my family,but being "Fit" & a "survivalist",I can now take what I want from those less fit & lacking my survival instinct according to the status quo. Thank-you for your permission.
COMMENT 299770P	2012-07-20 11:54 AM
Did you ever consider that the "umpires" counting the strikes may be the same ones wanting to close access, making their jobs much easier? "Oh, look footprints in the sand - that's a strike!" hmmm....
COMMENT 299752	2012-07-20 12:01 PM
I implore anyone claiming that these birds could somehow "fight off a kite" with their 4 inch stature to attempt to take down a lion with a few other humans with no weapons. Go ahead and try. As a small bird, if you see a large shadow in the sky moving over your head, you assume hawk, and you hide. When you go to hide, your eggs are left vulnerable for any number of predators. Humans are so out of touch with what real survival is, that 95% of the American public would be dead in a week if put in the same situation as these birds. If anything, i'd compare most present day humans to socialists who mooch off inventions of prior generations, while animals like these birds simply attempt to survive. And WE are the ones that call them lazy. The sense of entitlement is just astounding.
COMMENT 299790P	2012-07-20 12:38 PM
734P makes a good suggestion: Those who want to use the beach should help patrol it.
COMMENT 299794	2012-07-20 12:50 PM
299790P, I'm up there often at Ocean Beach County Park (there's a lagoon with lots of interesting birds and wildlife.) I once mentioned to a guy and his family (wife/girlfriend and two small kids) that they can't cross over into the sand. I was extremely polite and attempted to explain everything (there are signs all over the place.) He told me to f***k off and that he had a gun. I'm all for closing the area from March to September.
COMMENT 299798	2012-07-20 12:56 PM
If someone organized a group to educate people out there, then Joni wouldn't have a cause celebre to feed into the myth of North vs. South. She loves to argue it's those enviro wackos from South County that are causing the beach to be closed. Maybe now that the area has been redistricted into the 3rd district, cooler and smarter heads will prevail. Look at the successful programs out by UCSB and in Carp.
COMMENT 299807P	2012-07-20 01:23 PM
I am all for protecting a species but... Exactly why is it that the 5-10% of beach that is accessible is where they must breed. There are many hundreds of miles of coastline that people can't get to. Maybe this has been addressed already. Salmon like to spawn where they were born but if they cant get back there they spawn anywhere suitable. When fishing was allowed at sands I would routinely get yelled at by "docents" if my backpack was set down in the sand (outside the closure). I would be wading out waste deep and covering several hundred yards of beach sometimes. Their reasoning was that my bag on the beach for a few hours, outside of the nesting area, would prevent breeding for all the birds in the area that year. Are they that delicate of a species? Is there no better way to protect them than seemingly forfeit all beaches to the plover. Simply take comfort that we live near a beach with plovers, but can never go there.
COMMENT 299809	2012-07-20 01:29 PM
“Failure to comply with beach restrictions may result in fines and penalties that can reach up to $50,000 and up to one year in jail,” That sounds about right for these filthy plover beach trespassing human vermin. Who do these people think they are??? In fact, perhaps we need to look into increasing these penalties. Maybe if we made an example of a few of these despicable beach trespessing people and put them in jail for a year while bankrapting them and their families these horrible incidents will decline.
COMMENT 299749	2012-07-20 01:46 PM
If we treated every poorly nature designed creature on earth with this snowplow road block mentality I am sure we would just grind humanity to a stand still. The more "save the plover" articles I read, the more I lose my precious energy to fly my kite and protect my children.
COMMENT 299734P	2012-07-20 01:47 PM
752 I implore you to reread the post. It says other birds would be able to or at least try to attack the kite. They would then probably figure out it wasn't a predator and go back to their nests. Have you seen mockingbirds when a crow, hawk, or any other predator gets near their nest? I'm not sure of their wing span but they don't seem to care how big the animal is, they are going to fight. These little birds are thriving because they have not limited their species to a small amount of beach for breeding and they actually protect their nests. The longer this discussion goes on the more I dislike this little bird. Also, if you put humans in the same situation as these poor little birds they would move away from the beach. And if they didn't they wouldn't get any sympathy from me either. 809 I think you meant bankrupting.
COMMENT 299752	2012-07-20 01:54 PM
807, Where did you get that 5-10% figure? I think you are drastically inflating the impact. In all of Goleta/Santa Barbara, Ellwood area, there is maybe a 500 foot stretch of beach you can't use. The only place the plovers will survive is flat, sandy beaches where they can see predators approaching readily. Put yourself in their shoes before you think we have it so bad. And your idea of thinking salmon will readily spawn if they can't get to their original spawning ground is wrong.
COMMENT 299819	2012-07-20 01:55 PM
first of all, it is way too windy to fly kites at Surf beach. Secondly, there is a huge amount of beach that is off limits because of the base. I don't see why this particular area, the only 2 areas the public has access to, need to be controlled and given to the birds. They have access and I am sure use, the inaccessible beaches strictly monitored by the military. This is, and has been a bunch of garbage. Surfers will tell you they see those birds everywhere, up and down the coast.
COMMENT 299825	2012-07-20 02:07 PM
snowy plovers are the amuse bouche of the animal world...they are designed as prey and us putting up fences, closing beaches and nearly cancelling the 4th of july fireworks isn't going to stop the crow and seagull smorgasbord.
COMMENT 299819	2012-07-20 03:19 PM
whats even more amazing is the snowy plover was thought have disappeared from Surf beach. There were no restrictions, and we could go wherever, whenever we wanted... and YET the birds managed to reappear. How long had we shared the beach before the snowy plover protectors got it closed to human traffic? And if they are so terrified of people, why would they decide it was a good spot to begin breeding again? Perhaps it was not because of the humans that they left, but after seeing us enjoy the beach so much they wanted it back.
COMMENT 299752	2012-07-20 03:41 PM
819, surfers will say that, but they are probably seeing the sanderling. Also not sure if you noticed, but the beachgoing population is a big larger than it was 20 years ago. 734, so by your logic, any animal that can't suddenly defend itself against many new threats is useless? Like grizzly bears and bald eagles right? They are all shiftless and unfit to continue existence? Plovers do fight off predators by creating diversions, however, being a bird, they lack opposable thumbs to carry their eggs. By leaving their nest to risk their lives for their offspring, it is completely open to other predators. You also misinterpret me. Place yourself in a natural setting, with no police, paramedics, government, grocery store, guns, or tools and see how long you last when a dozen new predators pop up. Good luck.
COMMENT 299722P	2012-07-20 03:48 PM
Mr. Plover called me and told me that his flock also minds Vandenberg missile launches and the Amtrak train rumbling by, so he's demanding that the Air Force abandon the base and that the train tracks be removed. Mr. Whale's on call waiting.
COMMENT 299858	2012-07-20 03:52 PM
Plovers cannot breed and nest on just any flat beach. Some beaches are underwater during high tide. Some beaches have humans and dogs all over them. A backpack on a beach looks like a possible source of food to a crow and thus crows, who are predators of plovers, show up when they see people stuff. Everyone knows crows eat our garbage and that is also why there are so many of them because people leave garbage around. So the backpack itself doesn't inhibit the plovers, it is the crows that wonder if there is food in the backpack. So, why attract crows to the site of nesting plovers when you don't have to? That is the point.
COMMENT 299809	2012-07-20 03:59 PM
Exactly. And off to prison for a year if you don't comply. Filthy beach person.
COMMENT 299885	2012-07-20 05:16 PM
If you were hired to count an endangered animal like the Snowy Plover....Do you really think with all the people involved, they would let you report the real numbers? Of course not....people get fired when the Plover numbers recover. 722p Terrific Point!
COMMENT 299745P	2012-07-20 06:01 PM
299885 - sheer fantasy. What a ludicrous suggestion.
COMMENT 299752	2012-07-20 07:12 PM
885: Completely unfounded conclusion. I can just as easily say that your count with be skewed as to favor growth of the population. Trying arguing with facts next time, it makes you actually seem credible.
COMMENT 299885	2012-07-20 07:59 PM
We need to hire an Independent group to go out and do their own Plover Count. Maybe humans cant solve all of natures problems, but after 20 years of failure to boost their numbers, i'd say its high time to find a new posse and see what they come up with as the solution. You've had job security in this environmental niche for too long....time for some TRANSPARENCY!!! And time to Give us Back our Beaches!!!
COMMENT 299819	2012-07-20 08:19 PM
Official Status: Threatened, ( not endangered )the Pacific Coast population of the western snowy plover is federally listed under the Endangered Species Act of 1973 as threatened.
TWO ABBYS	2012-07-20 09:45 PM
The basis for the listing of the Pacific Coast population of the Western Snowy Plover as "threatened" was the hypothesis that the coastal birds do not interbreed with the non-threatened inland populations (think the Great Salt Lake). This hypothesis was subsequently disproven by DNA testing which documented that the plover found along the coast are not genetically distinct. Nonetheless, the USFWS and Department of Defense continue to claim that the public needs to be completely excluded from Ocean Beach for seven months out of every year. This regulation has no scientific basis whatsoever.
COMMENT 299989	2012-07-21 08:45 AM
Funny to hear people complain about the many being punished for the acts of the few. Welcome to the real world. With no budget to investigate and go after the few rotten apples the only to protect the natural beauty is to keep everyone away. "Public" doesn't mean YOU own it, it means others as well future generations also get the priviledge to enjoy it, not just you. This reminds me of folks who trash their neighbourhood then complain it's so dirty but when it comes to taking responsibility everyone's claiming someone else did it.
COMMENT 299722P	2012-07-21 11:18 AM
@989, the problem with that approach is that over time the public cares less and less about protecting natural resources to which they have no connection. Fewer people will care about snowy plovers or beach dunes, and political pressure will swing to opening up the entire beach to anything goes. Successful restoration efforts involve interpretation and education to build and maintain that public support and connection to the resources.
COMMENT 300106P	2012-07-21 04:57 PM
TWO ABBYS is right, there is some disagreement over whether the snowy plover is actually a species or just another variation of Kentish Plover. Additionally the "snowy" plover is not recognized by the IUCN Red List which classifies the level of threat to a species.
COMMENT 299858	2012-07-21 05:56 PM
From Wikipedia "Genetic research published in 2009 strongly suggested that the Snowy Plover is a separate species from the Kentish Plover,[1] and by July, 2011, the IOC, and the AOU North American committee have recognized them as separate species. Other taxonomic committees are reviewing the relationship."
COMMENT 300106P	2012-07-22 08:18 AM
hm, relationship under review. the committees who are most dedicated to "saving" the bird have decided it's a separate species. confusing indeed.
COMMENT 299734P	2012-07-23 04:53 PM
858-You do know that Wikipedia is not a dependable source for research right? And your quote does nothing to prove that any scientific study has confirmed it is a separate species. I "strongly suggest" that any group that cares and believes strongly in something will be blinded by their belief and ignore any facts to the contrary.

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