Subscriber Comments for
Search and Rescue Costs

Comments in order of when they were received | (reverse order)

COMMENT 331999	2012-10-16 02:17 PM
Hey... thanks for that. I was one who questioned the costs of such rescues but your point that these public servants are on clock anyway woke me up to the realities that a call is a call and if nothing else they get experience and training on every call.
COMMENT 332006	2012-10-16 02:32 PM
This op-ed piece opens up a bunch of questions about how many fire safety personnel we really need if there is a lot of down time involved in their job. How is the need determined, and how often are they called out? I suppose there are standard methods for determining how many fire crews you need to have an adequate response time but I've never heard any discussions about them. The helicopter time, in particular, is very expensive as each machine must be maintained after a certain number of operating hours. So the less the helicopters are used, the better is the City/County budget. These issues are even more critical given the fact that safety staff require a large percentage of the pension budget. In Ventura County, safety staff are 21% of the retirees but require about 50% of the pension budget due to their generous salary and benefits.
COMMENT 332011	2012-10-16 02:37 PM
Your argument seems to overlook the avoidability of these hiker rescues. Sure the rescue teams are paid and working anyway but helicopter flights add hugely to local budgets and some could be avoided if people just used a little common sense before leaving for a hike. Those reckless enough to go hiking without adequate provisions should be held responsible for their actions.
COMMENT 332020	2012-10-16 02:45 PM
I agree with 011. I don't mind the search and rescue for true medical emergencies. The ones that bug me are the avoidable ones. How do people get lost while hiking? If you follow the trail, you won't get lost. I also think the heat ones are avoidable. I lived in AZ during college and went hiking and never had a problem. It doesn't get hot enough to have an issue unless you don't bring water.. there's never an instance where you wouldn't be able to find shade.
COMMENT 332028	2012-10-16 02:54 PM
I make maps for a living. I've done so by hand, on foot, in the field. Point: I have a good sense of direction. And I have been lost. It happens. The problem of asking whether the emergencies are enough of an emergency to need a call out is that is subjective. What if the wrong call is made and someone in dire need was misjudged as simply lost and they die or are injured? How much would that lawsuit cost us? They must and should treat all emergency calls as equal in need or we will cause an avoidable tragedy. If you want fewer calls start an outdoor education program.
SBJULES	2012-10-16 03:22 PM
I wonder how those who object to the "avoidable" calls would determine that they are avoidable. Would you just leave people there until they justify their rescue. That is absurd. Firemen are public servants this is part of their job.
COMMENT 332040	2012-10-16 03:24 PM
I find these government expeditures (the rescues) are totally justified, unlike ones that included giving illegals ID cards so that they can obtain and use a debit card to deposit and withdraw their (tax-free) money.
COMMENT 332043	2012-10-16 03:26 PM
I still can't get over the fact we have, at least, six helicopters, but only one which can lift out a victim. And for some reason, when there was a real life or death emergency, it took the chopper over 45 minutes to get to the top of Romero Canyon. What a tragedy. Clearly our priorities are messed up. The majority of our fleet should be rescue and fire fighting helicopters, end of story. Sorry to be off topic.
COMMENT 332048	2012-10-16 03:35 PM
You totally missed the point on this. Most of these so called rescues are the result of people making a conscious decision to walk off into the wilderness, under prepared and then get scared when they can't see the lights of the city anymore. . Just like fighting a fire like the Zaca Fire, that is threatening no life or private property, there are a lot of people who stand to make A Lot Of Profit from running helicopters, trucks, supplies, fire fighter salaries.. It becomes not a business decision about what is actually needed, .. but a decision about how much money everyone can make from this situation.. In the instance of the Zaca Fire, it was over $200 Million spent for a fire that should have been just left to burn on its own. It pretty much did anyways. As a society, we have to get real and just say NO to the unions and the industrial complex.
COMMENT 332051	2012-10-16 03:38 PM
048, what if your mother or father were lost or injured? Would you say no to the "unions" then? What a ludicrous and absurd rant.
COMMENT 332052	2012-10-16 03:40 PM
Okay 048. I understand your complaint. What is your solution? And let's be specific here.
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-16 03:40 PM
The amount of time and effort is excessive as a public obligation. This is an inappropriate use of my tax dollars. Don't even go there claiming our high-priced "heros" sit around the station house the vast majority of the time with nothing to do. I don't wish to pay for this alleged "search and rescue" of those indulging in voluntary recreactional activities. Those hiking recreationally need to take out their own personal evacuation insurance on their own. People choosing these voluntary high-risk activities are not my obligation to bail out. Charge hiking permits that include this cost or else the hiker themselves need to make their own arrangements on their own dime. And find a less noisy way to get to Cottage hospital with their self-inflicted traumas.
COMMENT 332055	2012-10-16 03:41 PM
Educate thyself - from the SBCSAR website: Santa Barbara County Search & Rescue is an all-volunteer branch of the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department.
COMMENT 332057P	2012-10-16 03:46 PM
I'd like to thank the OP for a thoughtful and well-written piece. I'd also like to add that there will always be thoughtless and, quite frankly, stupid people requiring assistance, and an accident can happen to anyone. What would some of you suggest? Just let them die? One of the best things in this world is the large number of people willing to help others, sometimes risking their own health or lives to do so. One of the worst things in this world is the larger number of people who put themselves first or who don't even bother to think of those needed help. Shame on you. I hope it doesn't take a life or death emergency of your own to change your thoughts on the issue.
COMMENT 332058	2012-10-16 03:47 PM
There's always an inappropriate use of someone's tax dollars, 054. Mainly because that's a very subjective argument. I, for one, am glad my tax dollars can go to first and emergency response services.
COMMENT 332065	2012-10-16 03:56 PM
The OP has gone to a bit of trouble to explain, in clear terms, how this all works in terms of personnel and costs. The micro-managers on here would have us do what? Leave them out on the trail as punishment for not having it together in your eyes? Even the most experienced hikers can run into trouble, tho not as often as inexperienced ones. And when they do it's not for us to judge whether or not someone is worthy of a rescue. If that were the case we wouldn't be hearing from the crybabies, they'd be a skeleton on a trail somewhere, leaning against a tree with a big grin from having saved us all so much money. That's why the Fire Chief, the firemen, the pilots, Search and Rescue and the other responders are on the job and you are on the keyboard. Or in the fridge, or on the john, not on the trail. If we start to meter the motormouths we'd have tons of dough to pay for any of these rescues with coin left over for some beer!.
COMMENT 332076P	2012-10-16 04:18 PM
Firefighters have so much extra time that this Does not cost us anything , Maybe we should find them other tasks to do as well. I They could wi ork at the library or they could work for MTD. Ii hear we don't have money to hire people to do things like that.
COMMENT 332051	2012-10-16 04:22 PM
Am I reading this correctly?! Are people here honestly suggesting that our firefighters are over paid ("high-priced") or lazy, just sitting around getting paid to wait for a fire? How about any one of you sitting at your computer passing judgement try doing even an hours worth of what kind of work these men and women do? What a bunch of wretched people in this town!
COMMENT 332082	2012-10-16 04:28 PM
Bravo 332051!
COMMENT 332089	2012-10-16 04:38 PM
Why is there such a heavy assumption that people venturing out into wilderness are un-prepared? Accidents happen, people get sick, that's why I happily pay my taxes knowing that someday, it might be me or my family that needs help. Regardless of whether we are on the trail, in a car or at our homes.
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-16 04:50 PM
Notice how this argument is getting framed: Do XYZ or someone will die. This is how we get into a $20 billion state budget deficit folks. There are other options than leaving someone to die. 1. Post signs at the entrance to all public trails to indicate hiking is to be done at one's own risk and what the costs and consequences are in the event of an accident - be prepared or don't go. 2. Personal medical evacuation insurance required to go hiking on public trails, just like we demand proof of insurance for car registration. 3. Since we shouldn't be asked to pay for a 24/7 nanny-state cocoon, then yes, some will die because that is exactly what happened before learned to blame someone else if something goes wrong with the choices we make for ourselves. 4. Stop the damn helicoptor flights. Seconds matter only in TV doctor shows, not in real life medical emergencies.
COMMENT 332058	2012-10-16 04:51 PM
Thanks for your professional medical opinion, 054 M.D.!
COMMENT 332106	2012-10-16 04:55 PM
Please read the Edhat post from the actual person who is involved in rescues and stop armchair MDing things, people. For every avoidable rescue, there are dozens of rescues that involve unexpected, totally legit medical issues. If you want to play the blame game, fine. But at least KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT first. Blaming victims isn't cool, in case you're in the last century still. Sure, some people are irresponsible. But emergencies happen and any one of us at any time can be victims of medical emergencies. Have some compassion, but even more importantly, have some basic common understanding of S&R and medical facts and human body knowledge before you pass judgement.
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-16 06:30 PM
The issue is not whether people should get a helicopter rescue, but who should be responsible paying for it when engaging in voluntary recreational activities, even when they result is valid medical emergencies. This service is not free, regardless of volunteer time that is donated. Why has this part of the equation been factually documented? We can no longer be all things for all people. If you pay here, you have to cut somewhere else when the state is running a $20 billion deficit. Do you get this underlying principle? Start drilling for oil off the SB Channel if you want a deep pocket to pay for every whim and happenstance so no one is responsible for anything on their own dime any longer.
COMMENT 332162P	2012-10-16 07:06 PM
This article sounds like it was written by yet another "Concerned Professional Firefighter." Can we get some background on the author so we know where his opinion is coming from?
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-16 07:09 PM
I am a doctor. Seconds matter only in TV doctor programs; not real life. ER was not a documentary. It was played by fake doctors who always found time to be slutty so how many seconds on call were lost doing that? It is a privilege, not a right, to snatch life away from death in the very last seconds. Be prepared to pay for this if this is what you demand the state to provide in each and every circumstance and maintaing full battle-readiness 24/7. Other than that, triage choices continue to be made in medicine every single day and night. It comes with the profession and it takes its toll because docs soon learn they too cannot be all things to all people all the time. Live your life responsibly is the best medical advice I can give you. And accidents do happen which is why they are called accidents - no one's fault and if help can be offered fine, but sometimes it cannot. Live soberly and live with purpose in all your choices.
COMMENT 332168P	2012-10-16 07:17 PM
It does seem that the need for helicopter rescue on the trails falls under the "manufactured need" category. Someone is making lot of dough operating these noisy "rescue" missions. Follow the money. What was happening on the trails only five years ago? Where were all the helicopter-involved search and rescue missions then, up on the hiking trails? Were all the hikers and mountain bikers and horseback riders really all so much smarter and better prepared than those who are rescued now? Is this the new reality thanks to everyone having a cellphone? Why this sudden urgent need to have helicopters go out for nearly every incident? Why is it that NOW we are hearing of myriad dramatic searches, and life and death rescue missions. What has changed so much in only five (or fewer) years? Is it just because the helicopters are available that suddenly every mission must involve a helicopter?
COMMENT 332048	2012-10-16 08:11 PM
Once again, you folks have missed the point. The discussion is only really about NON-medical rescues. Essentially people taking a very low risk, but with zero prep and getting scared when they can't quickly find their way back to their car. The NON-medical resucues should be stopped. Clearly, it is not in the interest of society at large or fiscally. Let them fend for themselves OR charge them for every dollar involved in the non-emergency rescue.. Real simple folks. This is all it is about. Period.. The folks against this simple realistic solution, are the idiots that decide to ill prepare and the folks that profit from the rescues. Just follow the money.
COMMENT 332193	2012-10-16 08:27 PM
Driving a car is among the most dangerous voluntary acts a person can engage in. Edhat is really showing its stripes here.
COMMENT 332208	2012-10-16 08:59 PM
Government budgets for the responders are "justified" based on the number of responses they've made in the prior period, so of course they over-respond in every way they can. Three vehicles when one would do. A helicopter when a vehicle would do. Instances of structural fire are way down over the last 4 decades. Shoudn't there be a commensurate reduction in Municipal Fire Departments? No, of course not. They are angels. Are we paying them when they hang out on corners asking for money in the boot? I think we are, and I object.
COMMENT 332256	2012-10-17 07:40 AM
Post more signs? Good grief. We as a society are no longer able to incorporate common sense into our needs and responses. Insurance for hiking on public land. Egads. My only consolation is that I am approaching the end of my life.
COMMENT 332259P	2012-10-17 07:51 AM
Recreators in other wild areas of the west hire guides for safety to get full use of their back country time. Perhaps requiring permits and guides would be the best. It seems that non-health related 'rescues' are simply instances of the public providing free guide services to undereducated, unprepared wilderness-samplers.
COMMENT 332261	2012-10-17 07:58 AM
193 Thanks for the laugh. Funny how probably 99% of the people complaining about rescue costs hop into their car daily, openly inviting the opportunity to be in an accident. I do agree there are some people that venture into the wilderness underprepared. I would still rather see/hear a few of those types than none at all. At least it means some people are still making an effort to go outside.
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-17 08:09 AM
Drivers are required to purchase insurance just so they can't stick the other guy or the public with the costs in case of an accident. Hiking is apparently now routinely putting people in harm's way considering the high frequency of helicopter "rescues" it now requires, demands hikers also protect the public from these "accident" expenses as well. They need to carry evacuation insurance. Divers carry evacuation insurance when they go scuba diving because they know at any given time they might need an expensive recovery, even though they exert best efforts to avoid this need. The public should not be on the hook for those that venture in to the wilderness by choice.
COMMENT 332054	2012-10-17 10:28 AM
Here is an idea. Let's pro rate the cost of these "rescues" every year times all the hikers who at least make and effort to go outdoors, and see if it is cheaper to buy them all gym memberships instead where they won't need a helicopter evacuation if they have an accident working out. After all, the taxpayers should be paying everyone to stay healthy so we don't have to pay so much when they get sick.
COMMENT 332328	2012-10-17 10:29 AM
#028 made a remark that a lawsuit would ensue. why is the county or city responsible for the actions of a hiker that does not take precautions? I was just in Yosemite and the rangers stated COUNTLESS times that this is the park of the people, and YOU the people are climbing at YOUR own risk. and my parents would not be out hiking on some trail but if they were lost or confused from just walking out their door than I would like help finding them or anyone that suffers from some sort of memory lost/ confusion.
COMMENT 332394	2012-10-17 12:36 PM
054 I sincerely hope you are kidding. It is certainly not my responsibility as a taxpayer to pay anyone to stay healthy or support them when they are sick. It is my responsibility to provide those things for myself and my family but that should be it. What ever happened to personal responsibility?! If they want to send a helicopter into the hills every time someone calls that's just fine with me but the person getting the ride should pay the bill. Just because I live in a society does not mean I should have to take care of anyone else it simply means that everyone living here should pitch in so we can share some community resources. The extras we need because of our life choices should definitely be at our own expense.
COMMENT 332006	2012-10-17 04:04 PM
The responses of just trust the experts don't make sense to me. Trusting the experts has gotten us into the mess we are in and it is high time that the citizens of this city and county pose good questions about how things are done and why the cost is so high. They are now applying fees for fire suppression to the homeowners that live in the canyons. That makes sense to me, because my fire danger from brush fires is very low as I live in a developed area surrounded by other homes. But the canyon people are not very happy. In which cases should we all share the risk, and in which should the people directly affected shoulder the financial burden? That is the question.
SCEPTIC	2012-10-18 07:07 PM
Search and Rescue Team members are volunteers who save the county money by taking over S&R responsibilities we'd otherwise pay SBSO to do. They spend an enormous amount of time & $$ on training & equipment and are motivated only to help people who need it - I did this as a trainee/ intern years ago, got too sick with Lyme disease. (If you love rock-climbing/rappelling, tracking, hiking and being in the mountains, potentially being able to save someone's life is a pretty good incentive, but these are highly trained, dedicated, serious professionals). When someone's missing, there's no way to determine whether they're a medical emergency until they're found. The comments about personal responsibility regarding hikers and backcountry users are valid, and so is personal responsibility for people using crosswalks who don't look for cars. We have no social conscience regarding providing medical care for people with treatable medical conditions they can't afford that are due to factors beyond their control, and we don't feel irresponsible when their illnesses become terminal; we don't have a consistent philosophy regarding saving lives, so S&R can be construed as arbitrary relative to other life-threatening issues, but it's sure not about bucks for the local volunteers.

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